Thanks. I get what you and IIF and Perma are saying now. Like I responded to your previous post, I do get something of an instinctual feeling when I watch chin na and CMA ground techniques, I compare it to Judo and think to myself "Judo is more efficient with this, I'd probably rely on Judo instead of that". Every now and then I see a CMA technique that might work on the ground and for which I don't know a Judo equivalent and then I perk up.
Originally Posted by Ming Loyalist
I am not attempting to be a CMA revisionist, not my intent at all. If anything I am still so busy exploring CMA that I am bound to uncover a lot of my own misconceptions and this is probably one.
There are literally a million videos online claiming to be CMA groundfighting, and I've seen many, so I need some help deciphering what's really CMA and what's some crap given a CMA title.
Last edited by W. Rabbit; 3/15/2011 11:36pm at .
I'm pretty sure I asked you for a source earlier.
I'm tired and foolish...a source for what?
Originally Posted by It is Fake
You just said you have seen videos. Earlier I asked you for sources when you made the ground statement earlier.
I mucked around in the Mo Lum (Chinese martial arts world) almost two solid decades and the basic formula is;
Longer is sat around with no reason to really use it = more cluttered with BS and useless technique and pretty much ineffective
And this also means that two guys from the same school (even teacher) one can be fool of crap and the other can be a stone cold killer (some times literally)...
Generally speaking, if you train with realism/contact you find out what works and disgard the rest, if more CMA people did this, the better
Oh, and plenty of ground FIGHTING but pretty much NO ground GRAPPLING and where you see anything resembling it, it is stolen from Japanese Judo
My first statement was just an off hand observation. I find it very hard to believe that there has never been in China's long, violent history an art resembling a grappling submission style like BJJ or Judo, even though few modern CMA schools teach anything like it. The Chinese had to have rolled on the ground wrestling....it has to be there somewhere....
Originally Posted by It is Fake
Shuai jiao's predecessor, Chiao Li/Jiao li was supposed to have grappling and throws with strikes and was taught to the Zhou military.
The original Chinese Martial Arts, a combat wrestling system called Jiao Li (Strength and Endurance Skills), was systematised during the Zhou Dynasty (1122-256 BC). This military combat wrestling system, the first combination of fighting techniques historically employed by the Imperial Army, consisted of throws, hand and foot strikes, seizing joints, attacking vital parts and breaking joints in context of throwing. All of these elements of fighting skills were practised in training during the winter months and used in hundreds of battles in ancient China. It is the root and the foundation of Chinese martial arts. Used primarily in military engagements, Jiao Li gradually became a sport in the Qin Dynasty (221-207 BC) during the reign of the Emperor Shi Huangdi. Even as a sport practiced on the Lei Tai (Sparring Platform) exponents would aim to prove that their skills were superior to that of their opponent. Only the very best of Jiao Li exponents proven in battle and on the Lei Tai would be selected to become bodyguards to the Emperor.
Last edited by W. Rabbit; 3/16/2011 12:17am at .
TCMA is still stuck in the "battlefield" mentality as opposed to the "personal duel" / "self defense" state. You might note that traditional Japanese Jiu Jitsu had very little ne waza (ground) because you would likely DIE in a group situation on the ground with weapons.
The TCMA conception is still "throw them, then strike them" ie in the point systems in Lei Tai/Kuoshu and Sanshou/ San da fighting.. or in the fact Shuai Jiao has no ground grappling
There was actually a decent post on MAP as to why based on historical fact. It doesn't surprise me at all. Violent history? Spears, archers, daggers, swords, staffs, and eventually guns? Seriously, there is no reason to fight on the ground if you have read consistently about Chinese Warfare.
Sorry, many websites with legit teachers post BS and unsearchable histories. I'd have to see an academic source before I believed anything on a random website. Also, reading the description it sounds like Aikido, Judo (minus submissions) and any style with throwing not a submission based art.
Thanks lkfmdc said it better.
Like I just mentioned, Japanese traditional martial art didn't have ground grappling either until the stage when jujitsu ryu became personal defense, self defense, dueling, etc...
There just isn't really a big ground grappling movement when you are likely fighting where a chariot, a horse or an entire unit might run over you. Or someone might impale you on a lance.
IN relatively one-on-one situations, well, of course!
Or, as my teacher and another san da coach said about the full points being for throws done while remaining standing (this exists in sambo as well BTW). "So You throw them, then pull your gun and shoot them"
(no really, sanda was done my military folks you know)
Well, the Yi people wrestle on the ground but they seem to fight for a pin/fall, not a submission.
Originally Posted by W. Rabbit