Kampfringen - Judo crosstraining question

**DdlR** · Posted On: 2/15/2011 3:07pm

Kirk,

you might be thinking of the Durer fechtbuch, which (IIRC) was artist Albrecht Durer's "polishing" of an earlier and much more crudely illustrated treatise. Anyway, I'm pretty sure there's a sprawl in the ringen section.

**lklawson** · Posted On: 3/04/2011 2:21pm

Originally Posted by Mordschlag

Sorry for the double post but I just came across this today. I was actually going to write a short article for this forum regarding ground-fighting in Ringen and then I saw this:

http://www.thearma.org/essays/Wheres...dFighting.html

This is basically an expanded version of what I previously posted, now with flashy photos. I think this might benefit you more the Judo stuff, frankly.

OK, I finally found some time to give Mr. Clement's article a thorough read and, umm... well, the pictures are good.

As I read it I kept wondering what, exactly, his point was? He appeared to be arguing against some set of people who I've not heard of who were supporting the idea that ground-fighting with weapons is superior to any other method. To which I kept thinking, "duh. What idiot in their right mind thinks that ground-fighting with knives is SUPERIOR?" He also threw out the standard, "bite, grab-the-nuts, and what-if-the-other-guy-has-friends" chestnuts. I'm really surprised he didn't include broken glass or HIV infected needles.

Other gems included such stunning insight as, "Judoka who haven't trained to integrate weapons often have difficulty transitioning between using weapons and grappling instead of integrating the two skills" and "classical fencers who haven't trained to integrate grappling often have difficulty transitioning between using weapons and grappling instead of integrating the two skills" which merits another big, "duh."

Honestly, it really read like he had at that time (it was written in '09) some sort of bee in his bonnet about ground-fighting.

But the pics were good and, if his rough estimate is right, seems to represent about the right percentage of times ground-fighting happens with weapons (something less than about 5%, according to him, in those sources which include ground-fighting with weapons).

A quick google shows me that Bullshido already hashed this one through with pretty much the same complaints I have back in '09 when it came out. <shrug>

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

**GenericUnique** · Posted On: 3/04/2011 2:45pm

From the Talhoffer 1467 manual, at 106r:

Der hatt wöllen durch gon. So hatt er Im zuckt und ergryfft In und truckt In Nyder.

This one meant to pass through. Thus he draws him in and grasps him and presses him down.

**Mordschlag** · Posted On: 3/08/2011 12:10pm

Originally Posted by lklawson

OK, I finally found some time to give Mr. Clement's article a thorough read and, umm... well, the pictures are good.

As I read it I kept wondering what, exactly, his point was? He appeared to be arguing against some set of people who I've not heard of who were supporting the idea that ground-fighting with weapons is superior to any other method. To which I kept thinking, "duh. What idiot in their right mind thinks that ground-fighting with knives is SUPERIOR?" He also threw out the standard, "bite, grab-the-nuts, and what-if-the-other-guy-has-friends" chestnuts. I'm really surprised he didn't include broken glass or HIV infected needles.

Other gems included such stunning insight as, "Judoka who haven't trained to integrate weapons often have difficulty transitioning between using weapons and grappling instead of integrating the two skills" and "classical fencers who haven't trained to integrate grappling often have difficulty transitioning between using weapons and grappling instead of integrating the two skills" which merits another big, "duh."

Honestly, it really read like he had at that time (it was written in '09) some sort of bee in his bonnet about ground-fighting.

But the pics were good and, if his rough estimate is right, seems to represent about the right percentage of times ground-fighting happens with weapons (something less than about 5%, according to him, in those sources which include ground-fighting with weapons).

A quick google shows me that Bullshido already hashed this one through with pretty much the same complaints I have back in '09 when it came out. <shrug>

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

Those seem like fair points to me. I think that the point of the article was just to respond to people who keep asking “where is all of the ground-grappling in the manuals?” instead of “hey **** those guys who are doing things I disagree with”. I think people are so used to popular martial arts that have a large ground-fighting aspect to it that they automatically assume that this must also have the same large ground-fighting aspect, and so the article is meant to say basically “no not really”.

Furthermore, I think the issue with ground-fighting in HEMA\MARE is that people who don’t know about the role of weapons in ground-fighting want to just forget about weapons and take a BJJ class or something, instead of realizing how vital it is remember the role of the knife in taking someone to the ground.

**william_cain** · Posted On: 3/08/2011 8:07pm

I'm not really sure about that part of it. I know I started studying Judo because it serves as a bridge over the gaps between various techniques.

For example, we know the twerch ringen attacks and counters in Wallerstein. But what goes between them? What if the guy stiff-arms you as you try to move in? How do you upset someone's balance during a contested grapple?

Judo fills in these gaps, just like western wrestling or BJJ or le gouren would do if I were to take them. The idea is to get good at grappling, while at the same time getting good at fencing, and as each of them grows they will feed into eachother.

The specifics of the ground and weapons question, I will leave to better men than I. The purpose of the drill I proposed is simply to provide a chance for good takedown practice without it turning into knife-tag.