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  1. cyril is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/13/2007 12:25pm


     Style: No-Gi BJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    TKD: Proper Front-kick/Snap-kick question

    Something has been bothering me about the new school I've just recently joined, and it has to do with their variation on the front-kick, something I'm used to calling a snap-kick.

    Their front-kick is a pushing motion, similar to a side-kick, but with more emphasis on pushing with the ball of you foot (no heel at all). There is no snapping motion (which I believe is bad for you knee anyway, isn't it?) with the leg, but an extending push. Almost not even a strike.

    Another strange practice (as far as I am concerned) is that their grounded foot is supposed to pivot outwards 90 degrees. If you're not supposed to have your knee perpendicular for a side-kick push, why the hell would you for a front-kick push?

    Does the rotation of the hips provide that much more power to this relatively weak kick, or does is this just a stylistic thing that the teacher has been taught?

    tl;dr:

    I know proper hip rotation can provide the majority of your power with many kicks, but is this the case with a front-kick/snap-kick?
  2. GDIOrca91 is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/14/2007 1:49am


     Style: WTF TKD

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    OK dude, I'm not an expert on this, by any stretch, but pivoting your knee out while pushing forward with your foot just strikes me as anatomically weird. Maybe someone more familiar with this sort of kicks can correct me, but putting sideways strain on the knee just seems dumb; it's not built for it and you could probably hurt yourself. Again, I'm not all that familiar with push-kicks, and if I'm wrong, by all means, correct me. You DO however, seem to get more power out of it with the turned foot, but why would you do a forwards push-kick anyway, especially without the heel for impact? I mean, you'll be seriously off-balance if the opp doesn't just give and back off like you're banking on when throwing a kick like that. Cue: *BAM!* punch to wherever the hell they want, and you're probably keeling over at that point because you've got one foot at their chest and the other pivoted away on the ground... awkward.
    BTW, I've not had knee trouble with snapping kicks, but we don't use front snaps for anything but warmup, really. Round kicks all the way, and even in that, the snap isn't the major source of power. I've found that snapping at air, however, is quite bad, and wouldn't suggest doing it. You need something to hit if you want to snap with power, or you'll hyperextend and it'll suck for you. Furthermore, kicking air does diddly **** for your kicks, so why bother? Get a partner and some kicking pads or Thai pads or w/e, and belt a few good ones out. Heavy kicking bags work too, but I don't like them as much.

    On your last point, hips are STILL very much the major source of power in snap kicks! That much I know for certain. If you don't put your hip into it, it won't be too much more than a slap with your foot. Don't be lazy and kick like you mean it! Then again... I wouldn't use the front snap in sparring anyway, but to each their own.
  3. DerAuslander is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/14/2007 12:18pm

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     Style: BJJ/C-JKD/KAAALIII!!!!!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by cyril
    Something has been bothering me about the new school I've just recently joined, and it has to do with their variation on the front-kick, something I'm used to calling a snap-kick.
    Front just determines the direction, not the technique.

    Snap is the technique, and truthfully, it's not that great of one as it can seriously screw up your knee.

    Quote Originally Posted by cyril
    Their front-kick is a pushing motion, similar to a side-kick, but with more emphasis on pushing with the ball of you foot (no heel at all). There is no snapping motion (which I believe is bad for you knee anyway, isn't it?) with the leg, but an extending push.
    Sounds like they've got you doing Muay Thai teep kicks.

    Quote Originally Posted by cyril
    Almost not even a strike.
    Uh...what?!?

    Quote Originally Posted by cyril
    Another strange practice (as far as I am concerned) is that their grounded foot is supposed to pivot outwards 90 degrees. If you're not supposed to have your knee perpendicular for a side-kick push, why the hell would you for a front-kick push?
    I'm not sure what you mean by this, just because I can't see it, but rotating of your foot allows your knee to rotate, which allows your hips to turn over. So, yes, rotating your base foot a degree allows you to get more power into it.

    In a side kick, your base foot should rotate so your heel is pointing at the opponent.

    Quote Originally Posted by cyril
    Does the rotation of the hips provide that much more power to this relatively weak kick, or does is this just a stylistic thing that the teacher has been taught?

    I know proper hip rotation can provide the majority of your power with many kicks, but is this the case with a front-kick/snap-kick?
    Yes. A front push kick will knock people on their asses. Kicking without putting your hip into it is like punching just with your arm.
  4. EternalRage is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/14/2007 6:01pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by cyril
    Something has been bothering me about the new school I've just recently joined, and it has to do with their variation on the front-kick, something I'm used to calling a snap-kick.

    Their front-kick is a pushing motion, similar to a side-kick, but with more emphasis on pushing with the ball of you foot (no heel at all). There is no snapping motion (which I believe is bad for you knee anyway, isn't it?) with the leg, but an extending push. Almost not even a strike.

    Another strange practice (as far as I am concerned) is that their grounded foot is supposed to pivot outwards 90 degrees. If you're not supposed to have your knee perpendicular for a side-kick push, why the hell would you for a front-kick push?
    Wait so you do front kicks without pivoting at all on the base foot?

    In TSD MDK as well as MDK TKD, I was always taught that the power in your kicks comes from the hip. When you rotate that foot on the front kick, it gets the hips behind it. The chamber would bring the foot up and prepare the hips, and then the rotation of the foot and thrusting of the hips would extend the leg.

    I think they are doing Chil Sung Ee Ro Hyung here - looking at the guy in the front, he's got his bottom foot totally 90 degrees rotated, which gives him the hip power to thrust his kick out. And it doesn't necessarily end up as a push kick - the faster you drive your hips, the faster your leg goes out.



    Does the rotation of the hips provide that much more power to this relatively weak kick, or does is this just a stylistic thing that the teacher has been taught?
    It's not really a rotation of the hips either, not like a roundhouse kick, they're just putting their hips behind their chamber and using them to drive out the foot. Do it any other way, and you're kicking in a line from the floor to the target, with mostly leg muscle.
    Last edited by EternalRage; 7/14/2007 6:08pm at .
  5. HonkyTonkMan is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/14/2007 6:09pm

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     Style: TKD, BJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    What you are describing is called a thrust kick.

    It is different from a snap kick and is commonly taught in ITF Schools.

    Its actually more of a stomp than a kick. You are supposed to thrust your hips forward while extending the leg. The striking surface is the ball of the foot (below the toes)

    The reason the foot is turned out is to give stability for the posting (support leg). You also get power from the rotation. It isnt very good for the knee though.
    However, it will knock someone for a loop. The target area is usually the solar plexus or upper groin area.

    I use the frequently during sparring to stop a charging opponent.
  6. EternalRage is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/14/2007 6:20pm

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     Style: Bajillion Joo Jizzu

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    Quote Originally Posted by Errant108
    In a side kick, your base foot should rotate so your heel is pointing at the opponent.
    Like so:

  7. EternalRage is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/14/2007 6:24pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by oldman34
    What you are describing is called a thrust kick.
    Well, that really depends on how fast you thrust and retract your hips. Could easily be a snap if you do it fast enough.

    The target area is usually the solar plexus or upper groin area.
    Since the penetrating power is greater due to the hip thrust, it's also good to use to dig under the rib cage on the side.
  8. cyril is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/16/2007 1:00pm


     Style: No-Gi BJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    It's still terrible for the knee, but the power you can get out of it is much more impressive. Thank you everyone for the answers so far.
  9. kwoww is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/16/2007 1:45pm


     Style: punching bag / crew jitsu

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    If you don't pivot your bottom foot, even on a regular snappy front kick you're either going to end up going onto your toes on your supporting leg (bad) or crunching up your body (bad) to compensate for the fact that humans don't normally bend that way.

    And the thrust/push kick isn't bad for your knee at all if you do it right.
  10. mobydaddy is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/16/2007 2:37pm

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     Style: Hapkido

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    We do something similar in my hapkido school, we call it a push front kick. We don't actually "snap" the leg but we throw it relaxed and let our hip generate the force. Turning the back leg allows you to release it and vastly increases your range. I find this kick has very little stress on the knee as long as its released forward, not upward.

    Generally we don't throw this above waist height and it's very practical in sparring if you target your opponent's front hip, because landing it and pushing causes them to fold at the waist presenting their head for a following punch, kick, knee etc. You can also use it to collapse a front knee backwards, but that could really limit your choice of sparring partners.

    I've seen Muay Thai guys throw a similar kick, but usually to the chin or face, I think it's considered a major insult if you throw it at someone, probably because it's an instant takedown if you are slow or miss. Tony Jaa does it in Ong Bak here (00:59):

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y9u-U...elated&search=

    but to me doing it that high just spells takedown, unless you filming a movie...
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