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  1. virtual_mantis is offline
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    Welterweight

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    Posted On:
    3/17/2004 11:35am

    supporting member
     Style: 7 Star

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    This is a great thread.
  2. Ronin is offline

    Merry Christmas Bitch

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    Posted On:
    3/17/2004 11:37am

    Join us... or die
     Style: Canadian Shidokan

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    My take on the WC guys I have fought:
    They make a very satisfying thud when they fall :)
  3. wing_muay is offline

    Registered Member

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    Posted On:
    3/17/2004 12:16pm


     Style: WC, Muay Thai

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote - "Maybe I should consider adopting the MT guard and jabs before closing in for the clinch, THEN reverting to the wing chun guard."

    My experience is that the Wing Chun guard is weaker in the clinch...If the other person has you in a neck or guard clinch, I would rather try to clinch back muay thai style (neck, guard or back). Otherwise, the other person has control over my movements and can knee me at will (while preventing me from kneeing him back)
  4. HAPKO3 is offline
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    Marasmos

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    Posted On:
    3/17/2004 12:32pm

    supporting member
     Style: 10th Planet JJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    WCL - I'm just trying to throw some ideas at you...

    And I know where you're coming from. I am a hobbyist myself, and I don't have that much time to dedicate to training. I have more-than-full-time work, plus full time grad school, and a few hobbies to fit in, one of which happens to be martial arts. Others are photography, literature, and web design/development. I can only train two or three times a week at best, and don't have nearly the energy that I would like to put into it. At this rate, I will NEVER achieve anything past a certain ceiling. Luckily, that ceiling is still far off, and I just have to make do with a slower pace.
    You say what about my rice?
  5. Das Moose is offline
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    Senior Member

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    Posted On:
    3/17/2004 3:48pm


     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    WCL - seriously mate, fak sau + punch. This was done in a cagefight by my sifu, i think that kinda proves it works ;-)

    I think what you should try doing is be constantly hitting the guy, don't give him time to react. You've got to remember, WC is a completely different method of fighting from MT - don't play his game, don't move in and back out, get a good solid first strike in then follow it up. Random example - he steps in, you hit him with front kick to stomach, then chain punch the hell out of his face before he has time to recover. There's a multitude of other ways. Just try it out.
  6. WhiteShark is offline
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    1% Shark is better than you.

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    Posted On:
    3/17/2004 4:01pm

    supporting memberforum leaderstaff
     Style: BJJ/Shidokan

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    "Whiteshark: the rules - no elbows, no knees. And I agree with you, gotta learn how to kick."

    Then you are doing Kickboxing not Muay Thai. The clinch throws and knees are an important part of MT training. I understand not sparring with elbows, we don't either. But, not using a real clinch with knees is dangerous if your guys are going to fight Muay Thai rules. We use a modified knee strike in sparring so we don't hurt each other its kind of an inner thigh slap that simulates a circular knee. This is pretty standard for MT sparring. You should ask you coach about the lack of knees and the rules that the fighters compete under.
  7. Kiozz is offline
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    Registered Member

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    Posted On:
    3/17/2004 4:17pm


     Style: mulatto homeless boxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Originally posted by WhiteShark
    "Whiteshark: the rules - no elbows, no knees. And I agree with you, gotta learn how to kick."

    Then you are doing Kickboxing not Muay Thai. The clinch throws and knees are an important part of MT training. I understand not sparring with elbows, we don't either. But, not using a real clinch with knees is dangerous if your guys are going to fight Muay Thai rules. We use a modified knee strike in sparring so we don't hurt each other its kind of an inner thigh slap that simulates a circular knee. This is pretty standard for MT sparring. You should ask you coach about the lack of knees and the rules that the fighters compete under.
    I was thinking about that too. Do as WS said and ask the coach. It wouldn't be good if it's kickboxing masked as Muay Thai.

    Do you have a Savate club near you?
  8. WingChun Lawyer is offline
    WingChun Lawyer's Avatar

    Modesty forbids more.

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    Posted On:
    3/17/2004 11:30pm

    supporting member
     Style: Muay Thai, BJJ newbie.

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Whiteshark, they do use knees - the rules I mentioned are just for beginners, such as the guy I sparred with yesterday and myself! It is MT, you can relax about that - there is an awful lot of MT nutriding there, I can't be wrong about that (and no, there is no savate school close to home, Riozz).

    Moose: I understand that I could fight those guys using only wing chun, if I trained specifically for that every saturday and at home in my (precious!) spare time. But there are two problems with that:

    1) My wing chun is simply not that good. I do know some techniques I can use almost every time (such as the tan sao and the straight punches, which I love, and a few other hand and elbow techniques, as well as a decent base), but I lack footwork, alternatives to parries and blocks and, most importantly, kicks. MT can help me on that (and my fak sao sucks big time anyway) :).

    2) I go to a MT school in order to learn how to fight (same reason I go to my wing chun school). In my opinion, and as Hapko put it, I work against myself by refusing to learn what they have to offer: I certainly will not abandon my wing chun training, and I will use it whenever I have the opportunity to do so during sparring, but they do offer sound techniques, and I should seriously practice them AS LONG AS they do not work against the (precious few) wing chun techniques I have already incorporated into my game. If I do take the time to go there, I should learn their stuff: also, I think it is not respectful to just ignore what the coach is seriouly trying to teach me (I do not ignore my sifu, I should not ignore him).

    I am currently considering the techniques I will use during my next sparring match - this may be a bit of over analysis, but I think such is a necessity when you crosstrain. I would appreciate suggestions, but at the moment I am considering the following mix:

    a) MT guard when moving to attack and to evade;

    b) Wing Chun guard when being attacked (I love the tan sao, sue me, and anyway the technique is second nature to me);

    c) Jabs and front kicks to initiate an attack when I want to keep the distance (attak + evasion);

    d) Straight punches when being attacked and when forced into a clinch (same as tan sao, this technique is second nature to me and I can't help using it - plus, the MT guys I sparred with did NOT defend against it whenever I used it, so it is pretty much reliable).

    Bear in mind that I am a MA enthusiast who is trying to form a well rounded, reliable stand up striking game. None of my opinions are already formed, so all suggestions are, of course, appreciated - and the mix above is being made just for the purposes of the next match, so I can try a bit of everything and check out my weaknesses.

    Just remember that I am not exactly experienced in anything besides judo (which I gave up 7 years ago, so that's really not much of a base for my fighting skills) - and I was never that good at it anyway, so, besides the few wing chun techniques that I have practiced enough to become second nature to me (mostly tan sao and straight punches), I am almost a tabula rasa.

    Thanks for the input gents.

    PS: sorry for the long post, I had too much coffee today and am currently high on caffeine.
    That civilisation may not sink,
    Its great battle lost,
    Quiet the dog, tether the pony
    To a distant post;
    Our master Caesar is in the tent
    Where the maps are spread,
    His eyes fixed upon nothing,
    A hand under his head.


    - W.B. Yeats
  9. Kiozz is offline
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    Registered Member

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    Posted On:
    3/17/2004 11:40pm


     Style: mulatto homeless boxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    WCL, the only thing that gets me a bit perplex is your plan on using the wc guard on defence. This makes me think the attacks usually start from out of range, and consequentially that probably the hands of the guys there aren't that good. Please further the guard point (in your previous sparring experiences).
    In my experience the place you want to keep your hands when attacked is well on your face.
  10. WingChun Lawyer is offline
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    Modesty forbids more.

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    Posted On:
    3/17/2004 11:50pm

    supporting member
     Style: Muay Thai, BJJ newbie.

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Kiozz, I am still not sure myself about their skills with their hands. As I said, the guy I fought yesterday did have some nasty hooks as counter attacks, but OTOH he could not stop a well placed straight punch.

    As I see it, the problem is not the wing chun guard itself (which I consider very good for defensive purposes), but the fact that I was trying to use it in an offensive way (i.e. I was trying to use my tan sao to force the other guy's guard open - in other words, I was mindlessly rushing in).

    Anyway, those are just ideas for my next sparring match, I am still trying things out. Fell free to suggest other techniques or combinations.
    That civilisation may not sink,
    Its great battle lost,
    Quiet the dog, tether the pony
    To a distant post;
    Our master Caesar is in the tent
    Where the maps are spread,
    His eyes fixed upon nothing,
    A hand under his head.


    - W.B. Yeats
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