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  1. I aint punchy!? is offline

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    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    686

    Posted On:
    11/03/2005 7:55am


     Style: Arnis, WC, Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    WCL I just read this thread. Great stuff. It was interesting to hear that you tried some WC defenses in your early days of MT (tan sau, gaan sau etc). Do you still do these kinds of things in MT? Do you still do your WC footwork, or you now do MT footwork?

    It was interesting to hear that your old WC club had no interest in sparring, and that that acupuncturist guy's WC group didnt seem to know what sparring is. I can't believe that their are martial arts groups out there that don't do sparring... unbelievable.
  2. WingChun Lawyer is offline
    WingChun Lawyer's Avatar

    Modesty forbids more.

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    Dec 2003
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    Posted On:
    11/03/2005 8:05am

    supporting member
     Style: Muay Thai, BJJ newbie.

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    IAP, nope, I don´t use WC blocks or footwork any longer. We use western boxing punching techniques, so I rely more on outside-inside hand defenses ("pak sao" for the chuners) and on bobbing and weaving; I do not "glide" along the floor anymore, I now thread lightly so as to be able ton advance and retreat rapidly.

    My only concession to WC now is a slight modification I did to our guard. See, we are supposed to use a classic western boxing hand guard, keeping the hands close to the ears while leaving the face mostly exposed. I keep my leading hand (usually the left, but that depends on which leg I am keeping in front at the moment, obviously) right in front of my face, protectong my centerline; since we use boxing gloves, I keep my hand just below my eyes so I can see my opponent.

    It has worked quite well up to this point. But other than that, I cannot say that I use WC at all during my sparring sessions.

    About the acupuncturist, well, he was not only an acupunturist. He is a licensed doctor by one of the most prestigious univeristies in São Paulo: and I believe he does know what sparring is, he simply does not want to have anything to do with it.

    Hell, they told me they use CHEST PROTECTORS to do chi sao. That is even more pathetic than my own former WC group.
    That civilisation may not sink,
    Its great battle lost,
    Quiet the dog, tether the pony
    To a distant post;
    Our master Caesar is in the tent
    Where the maps are spread,
    His eyes fixed upon nothing,
    A hand under his head.


    - W.B. Yeats
  3. amichaell is offline

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    Mar 2005
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    Posted On:
    11/03/2005 4:26pm


     Style: nothing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Good read, WCL. Do you think you would have stayed with WC (even part time?) if the school sparred? Are there any aspects of WC you like or prefer over MT?

    edit: And vice versa, since you've trained in both, have you run across any flaws in WC that were brought out by your MT training?
  4. WingChun Lawyer is offline
    WingChun Lawyer's Avatar

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    Posted On:
    11/04/2005 8:58am

    supporting member
     Style: Muay Thai, BJJ newbie.

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by amichaell
    Good read, WCL. Do you think you would have stayed with WC (even part time?) if the school sparred? Are there any aspects of WC you like or prefer over MT?

    edit: And vice versa, since you've trained in both, have you run across any flaws in WC that were brought out by your MT training?
    Answering your first question, yes, I believe I would have stayed if we did spar and if I had no MT experience at all. And I believe that would have been very bad for me.

    Because, even discounting the fact that most of the WC guys I practiced with were mostly pansies, and would not have sparred hard at all, there still remains the fact that a) I would have been sparring wing chuners, who fight "in a certain special way", and therefore there would be no pressure testing of my skills against people from other backgrounds, and b) we did lack essential techniques, like the jab, the cross and the hook.

    Aspects of WC I like...hm, frankly, I like the centerline theory and the strong emphasis my former sifu put on learning balance. The good stuff I learned with WC (knees, elbows) was covered more deeply with Muay Thai, in a more violent environment.

    As for the rest, I really do not believe WC did me any good: even the tactical aspects of WC seem to me to be essentially flawed. Let´s see.

    1) The "forward pressure all the time" theory does not work if you do not want to get into a clinch. It is also a stupid idea and a poor tactical option against a superior boxer. When someone is faster with the hands than you are, and you want to keep at striking (not clinch) range, you should circle and outflank him, you should NOT advance at his centerline.

    2) The WC stance and footwork is terrible. The expression "flat footed" denotes a bad position for a reason. When I fight I want to be able to retreat and advance at a moment´s notice, and I also want to be able to move sideways and in a circle. The WC stance does not let me do that. Also, you can´t do a proper roundkick from that position, and only relatively weak frontkicks can be done without telegraphing. Yes, yes, WC front kicks should be aimed at the balls and at the knees. But you still need some strength behind them.

    3) The WC straight punch is a low percentage technique at best. It lacks range, its power is NOT comparable to the jab and to the cross (both of them centerline punches), it takes a lot of training to develop some power with them, and they cannot be used outside the "straight angle", which is a luxury you may not have at the time. Jabs and crosses fulfill the exact same function, and they are more powerfull, easier to learn, and useful in lots of angles.

    I did use a straight punch effectively once, against a guy who was sparring for the first time. At the time it was a good choice. Still, training this move should rank pretty low in anyone´s list of priorities.

    4) The WC hand guard (tan sao held in front of the body - palm up for you non chuners) is useless. It can easily be swept aside by a slapping motion, and it does not let YOU attack at range. The boxing stance is superior, because it relies on attacking, not on defending - when you get into range you use a jab, you do not rely on an arm held statically and hope your adversary is a retard who won´t be able to slap it away and advance, or who won´t be able to use a hook effectively.
    That civilisation may not sink,
    Its great battle lost,
    Quiet the dog, tether the pony
    To a distant post;
    Our master Caesar is in the tent
    Where the maps are spread,
    His eyes fixed upon nothing,
    A hand under his head.


    - W.B. Yeats
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