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  1. DuckofDeath is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/27/2011 1:27pm


     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Even If we agree I will argue relentlessly about the Ju-Jitsu vs Jiujitsu dead horse

    Quote Originally Posted by Gezere View Post
    That doesn't matter.
    Oh, yes it does.

    The issue isn't whether ju-jitsu and jiu-jitsu mean something different. The issue is why Benavides selectively uses the obsolete romanization jiu instead of ju.

    He holds the rank of blue or purple belt in Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu yet never states his true rank in BJJ or who awarded it to him anywhere on his website. He holds the rank of 4th degree black belt in Goshin Do Ryu Ju-Jitsu yet never once mentions "Goshin Do Ryu Ju-Jitsu" anywhere in the text of his website; one has to go through the trouble of blowing up the photo image of his certificate to see what it actually says. Moreover, the caption under the certificate doesn't read, "Benny's Goshin Do Ryu Ju-Jitsu Certification"; it reads "Benny's Jiu Jitsu Certification." The name of his school, "Xtreem Jiu-Jitsu," mimics the naming style of BJJ schools which leave out the qualifying "Brazilian," e.g., "Komar Jiu-Jitsu," "Westside Jiu-Jitsu," etc.

    It's pretty clear to me that Benavides, by describing himself as a 4th degree black belt in Jiu-Jitsu who teaches Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, is trying to hoodwink people into thinking that he's a 4th degree black belt in Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu.
  2. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/27/2011 1:43pm

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     Style: xingyi

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    If this continues it will be culled.

    Let me be explicitly clear why?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gezere
    I am also a BJJ Brown with the permission to teach and promote students in BJJ. I could open a school of "JiuJitsu" and claim my BB in Jiu Jitsu and still offer BJJ. It would be a bitchass thing to do but I would more than likely rope in a lot of the casual people out there. Very deceitful and misleading but hard to prove as Fraud.
    You are arguing the exact same thing he is saying.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gezere
    More than likely he is going to claim another system of Jiu Jitsu. Its obvious misleading advertising.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gezere
    It would be a bitchass thing to do but I would more than likely rope in a lot of the casual people out there. Very deceitful and misleading but hard to prove as Fraud.
    Quote Originally Posted by DoD
    It's pretty clear to me that Benavides, by describing himself as a 4th degree black belt in Jiu-Jitsu who teaches Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, is trying to hoodwink people into thinking that he's a 4th degree black belt in Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu.
    The spelling doesn't matter is all that Gezere is explaining. The Jiujitsu vs Jujitsu argument doesn't belong in a MABS thread.
  3. Omega Supreme is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/27/2011 1:53pm

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     Style: Chinese Boxing

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by DuckofDeath View Post
    Oh, yes it does.

    The issue isn't whether ju-jitsu and jiu-jitsu mean something different. The issue is why Benavides selectively uses the obsolete romanization jiu instead of ju.

    He holds the rank of blue or purple belt in Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu yet never states his true rank in BJJ or who awarded it to him anywhere on his website. He holds the rank of 4th degree black belt in Goshin Do Ryu Ju-Jitsu yet never once mentions "Goshin Do Ryu Ju-Jitsu" anywhere in the text of his website; one has to go through the trouble of blowing up the photo image of his certificate to see what it actually says. Moreover, the caption under the certificate doesn't read, "Benny's Goshin Do Ryu Ju-Jitsu Certification"; it reads "Benny's Jiu Jitsu Certification." The name of his school, "Xtreem Jiu-Jitsu," mimics the naming style of BJJ schools which leave out the qualifying "Brazilian," e.g., "Komar Jiu-Jitsu," "Westside Jiu-Jitsu," etc.

    It's pretty clear to me that Benavides, by describing himself as a 4th degree black belt in Jiu-Jitsu who teaches Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, is trying to hoodwink people into thinking that he's a 4th degree black belt in Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu.
    This 'ol argument? No it doesn't matter. If somebody claims ju jitsu or jiu jitsu its the students job to make sure to ask for specifics. I teach Jiu Jitsu. If a student asks me if I teach BJJ the answer is always no. They ask what's the difference and I say "we don't jump guard like little pussies"...jk
  4. Gezere is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/27/2011 1:53pm

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     Style: Kakutogi

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by DuckofDeath View Post
    Oh, yes it does.

    The issue isn't whether ju-jitsu and jiu-jitsu mean something different. The issue is why Benavides selectively uses the obsolete romanization jiu instead of ju.
    You are wrong. It doesn't matter. The rominzation of 柔術 has been used interchangably with different orgs all the time. Example:



    Both of these are by legit BJJ BB. So just because the used a different romanization doesn't mean its not BJJ.
    I could open a school of BRAZILIAN JUJUTSU and anyone going, OMG HE'S FAKE BECUASE HE DIDN'T USE "JIU JITSU" would be an idiot.
    Ask Renzo Gracie:


    It's pretty clear to me that Benavides, by describing himself as a 4th degree black belt in Jiu-Jitsu who teaches Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, is trying to hoodwink people into thinking that he's a 4th degree black belt in Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu.
    That's what I've been saying from the start. The issue I was trying to point out is that before people started using the "F" word they would have to understand this simple fact. Is he misleading people? Hell Yes. Is he a FRAUD? VERY hard to prove.
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  5. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/27/2011 4:00pm

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     Style: xingyi

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Yes and that again is what Gezere was saying before we traveled into Ju vs Jiu vs Brazilian Vs Japanese blah blah blah....

    That's why I will be culling the rest of this to YMAS. He is a 4th degree in a JJ Style and has at least a very high Blue or purple in legitimate BJJ. People can draw their own conclusions as semantics is not fraud.

    Culled:
    Xtreem Jiu Jitsu in El Paso, TX - No BS MMA and Martial Arts

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    Last edited by It is Fake; 1/28/2011 9:34am at .
  6. DuckofDeath is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/28/2011 4:10am


     Style: BJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    jiu-jitsu, jujutsu, jiu-jitsu, jujutsu, let's call the whole thing off

    Quote Originally Posted by Gezere View Post
    You are wrong. It doesn't matter. The rominzation of 柔術 has been used interchangably with different orgs all the time. Example:



    Both of these are by legit BJJ BB. So just because the used a different romanization doesn't mean its not BJJ.
    I could open a school of BRAZILIAN JUJUTSU and anyone going, OMG HE'S FAKE BECUASE HE DIDN'T USE "JIU JITSU" would be an idiot.
    Ask Renzo Gracie:



    That's what I've been saying from the start. The issue I was trying to point out is that before people started using the "F" word they would have to understand this simple fact. Is he misleading people? Hell Yes. Is he a FRAUD? VERY hard to prove.
    Alas, the examples you cite are not examples of practitioners of BJJ freely interchanging "jiu-jitsu" with "jujutsu" and "jujitsu." The first two books you cite are put out by Black Belt Books, and it was an editorial convention of Black Belt Books and Black Belt Magazine to use "Brazilian Jujutsu" instead of "Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu." Here's an example of what I mean. This is a link to a Black Belt Magazine article by one of their editors titled "Brazilian Jujutsu Over 40" featuring BJJer Roy Harris:

    http://www.blackbeltmag.com/archives/519

    Now here on Roy Harris' own website

    http://www.royharris.com/

    is a DVD titled "Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu Over 40."

    Pedro Carvalho's book (published by Black Belt Books) was titled Brazilian Jujutsu Volume 1: Gi Techniques.

    Yet on Pedro Carvalho's own website, he consistently uses "Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu,"

    http://www.brazilianjiujitsu.net/Car...itsu/Home.html

    and that is also reflected in his team logo:



    The same applies to Joe Moreira's book, also published by Black Belt Books, Brazilian Jujutsu: Side Mount Techniques.

    On his own website

    http://www.joemoreirabjj.com/

    Moreira consistently uses "Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu," and this is reflected in his team logo as well:



    Renzo Gracie and John Danaher's Mastering Jujitsu is so titled because they are looking at "jujitsu" in a broader scope in which "Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu" is a subset: "Since the Gracies began jujitsu training at a time when jiu jitsu was the most common spelling of the term, they naturally wrote down their art as jiu jitsu. Since then, most people have switched to the more correct jujitsu or jujutsu. Having created a tradition, the Brazilians have stuck with the old style jiu jitsu--hence, the spelling used in this book when referencing the Brazilian style." (p. 32)

    Once again, Renzo's own website

    http://www.renzogracie.com/

    consistently uses "Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu" or "Jiu-Jitsu," and this is also reflected in his team logo:

  7. Tom .C is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/28/2011 7:08am

    Join us... or die
     Style: Aikido,Judo

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    Quote Originally Posted by DuckofDeath View Post
    Alas, the examples you cite are not examples of practitioners of BJJ freely interchanging "jiu-jitsu" with "jujutsu" and "jujitsu." The first two books you cite are put out by Black Belt Books, and it was an editorial convention of Black Belt Books and Black Belt Magazine to use "Brazilian Jujutsu" instead of "Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu." Here's an example of what I mean. This is a link to a Black Belt Magazine article by one of their editors titled "Brazilian Jujutsu Over 40" featuring BJJer Roy Harris:

    http://www.blackbeltmag.com/archives/519

    Now here on Roy Harris' own website

    http://www.royharris.com/

    is a DVD titled "Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu Over 40."

    Pedro Carvalho's book (published by Black Belt Books) was titled Brazilian Jujutsu Volume 1: Gi Techniques.

    Yet on Pedro Carvalho's own website, he consistently uses "Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu,"

    http://www.brazilianjiujitsu.net/Car...itsu/Home.html

    and that is also reflected in his team logo:



    The same applies to Joe Moreira's book, also published by Black Belt Books, Brazilian Jujutsu: Side Mount Techniques.

    On his own website

    http://www.joemoreirabjj.com/

    Moreira consistently uses "Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu," and this is reflected in his team logo as well:



    Renzo Gracie and John Danaher's Mastering Jujitsu is so titled because they are looking at "jujitsu" in a broader scope in which "Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu" is a subset: "Since the Gracies began jujitsu training at a time when jiu jitsu was the most common spelling of the term, they naturally wrote down their art as jiu jitsu. Since then, most people have switched to the more correct jujitsu or jujutsu. Having created a tradition, the Brazilians have stuck with the old style jiu jitsu--hence, the spelling used in this book when referencing the Brazilian style." (p. 32)

    Once again, Renzo's own website

    http://www.renzogracie.com/

    consistently uses "Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu" or "Jiu-Jitsu," and this is also reflected in his team logo:

    So, what you are saying is that if things that don't matter, matter to people who don't matter, they matter?
  8. battheo is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/28/2011 7:38am


     Style: Quanfa

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    DOD, the reason you are wrong is that there's nothing fraudulent about a JJJ guy using an older romanization and spelling it Jiu Jitsu. Why the BJJ crew stick to an older romanization, or whether they do, has no impact on your point whatsoever.

    If you really wanted to PROVE your point you would need a watertight argument that JJJ guys CANNOT use the older romanization to refer to their arts.

    If he said in response to you: "my choice of spelling has nothing to do with BJJ / JJJ but everything to do with tradition. My teacher called it Jiu Jitsu, and I teach the art I was taught by him." What would your response be? What if he claimed he simply wasn't up to date with terms or preferred the sound of the older term?

    The problem is this is a petty technicality (spelling) that is based on incorrect data (that JJJ guys can't / shouldn't use Jiu Jitsu). I'm not saying your wrong, but fixating on this petty issue inadvertently implies a failure to understand the underlying process of investigation, and that harms the thread. Hence harping on about it swiftly becomes off topic. Which is why your posts have been moved.
  9. judoka_uk is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/28/2011 8:45am

    Join us... or die
     Style: Judo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    This is one of the most retarded arguments over petty technicalities I've ever seen and I post on Judoforum!
  10. battheo is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/28/2011 8:50am


     Style: Quanfa

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    I agree. Which is saying something, as I am both petty and retarded.
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