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  1. Matsubayashi is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/30/2011 7:11pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Okinawan Karate

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Uncle Skippy View Post
    What point?

    I don't even think you are even remotely addressing the original question.

    Even if we were talking about diversity of arts as a metric used to measure loyalty to instructors, you gloss over (completely avoid, actually) the fact that not all of those styles are descended from the original masters without approval. There are students who did so with the approval of their instructors. There are students who did so without.

    With a mixed set of statistics, your point is unsubstantiated and, as a result, nonexistent.

    Welcome to Bullshido. Where real proof rules all.
    The fact that some styles may "not all of those styles are descended from the original masters without approval" is moot. There only needs to be one style that was started in opposition to a master to prove out what I said. The fact is that there are hundreds of well documented such examples and only one is needed to show that not all martial artists of old blindly followed their leaders. Blindly following your master through years of apprenticeship certainly happened, but our perceptions of this are completely colored by Hollywood mythos just as martial arts was and history provides substantive proof that we are as human today as we were 100 years ago.
  2. Coach Josh is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/30/2011 7:52pm

    Business Class Supporting Member
     Gladiators Academy Lafayette, LA Style: Judo, MMA, White Trash JJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    That's the point we are trying to make. Either your grasp of the English language is low or you're an idiot. As instructor I want my students to exceed me in every facet of martial arts. This should be the goal of every instructor. Sadly many do not want this to happen and find ways to hold back a student. This makes the student leave and well whatever happens happens. Ideally you should study MA for the sake of MA. Developing and relearning and striving to improve should be your goal. Instructors forget this after some time OR they have become disillusioned with the politics of that MA and want to shelter the student from the assholes that made him mad. Inept instructors will feel threatened and discourage such a practice to hide the fact that they are incomplete instructors. Now the difference is that if your instructor forbids the practice OR the instructor tells you that you are not ready for outside learning because you have not mastered the basics of your own academy. Forbidding the practice of outside instruction is a clear sign you should find a better academy. My goal is always to teach and train them to be able to leave me and go else where. Then they will return and add to your program and have a greater appreciation for you as an instructor.
    Judo is only gentle for the guy on top.
  3. Coach Josh is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/30/2011 7:56pm

    Business Class Supporting Member
     Gladiators Academy Lafayette, LA Style: Judo, MMA, White Trash JJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    WTF happen to my paragraphs?
    Judo is only gentle for the guy on top.
  4. Matsubayashi is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/30/2011 9:13pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Okinawan Karate

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Coach Josh View Post
    That's the point we are trying to make. Either your grasp of the English language is low or you're an idiot. As instructor I want my students to exceed me in every facet of martial arts. This should be the goal of every instructor. Sadly many do not want this to happen and find ways to hold back a student. This makes the student leave and well whatever happens happens. Ideally you should study MA for the sake of MA. Developing and relearning and striving to improve should be your goal. Instructors forget this after some time OR they have become disillusioned with the politics of that MA and want to shelter the student from the assholes that made him mad. Inept instructors will feel threatened and discourage such a practice to hide the fact that they are incomplete instructors. Now the difference is that if your instructor forbids the practice OR the instructor tells you that you are not ready for outside learning because you have not mastered the basics of your own academy. Forbidding the practice of outside instruction is a clear sign you should find a better academy. My goal is always to teach and train them to be able to leave me and go else where. Then they will return and add to your program and have a greater appreciation for you as an instructor.
    Huh????
  5. Uncle Skippy is offline

    See my tongue. SEE IT!

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    Posted On:
    7/31/2011 12:53am

    Business Class Supporting Member
      Style: BJJ, MT, TKD

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Matsubayashi View Post
    The fact that some styles may "not all of those styles are descended from the original masters without approval" is moot. There only needs to be one style that was started in opposition to a master to prove out what I said.
    You are attempting to prove a point that was never asserted by anyone in this thread.

    Even further...

    The fact is that there are hundreds of well documented such examples and only one is needed to show that not all martial artists of old blindly followed their leaders.
    ... this isn't the point of the thread, and no matter how much you try to frame it as such, is not a valid point for the topic at hand.

    Blindly following your master through years of apprenticeship certainly happened, but our perceptions of this are completely colored by Hollywood mythos just as martial arts was and history provides substantive proof that we are as human today as we were 100 years ago.
    It was never a question of "does every student blindly follow his master". You're interpretation of it as such is either due to:

    1) Reading comprehension failure

    or

    2) Reading comprehension failure

    Picking either 1 or 2 will suffice.

    In the meantime, there is no reason for me to keep replying to you if you continue down this backwoods road of your own making. It isn't relevant to the topic at hand.
  6. Matsubayashi is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/31/2011 6:51am

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Okinawan Karate

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Uncle Skippy View Post
    You are attempting to prove a point that was never asserted by anyone in this thread.

    Even further...



    ... this isn't the point of the thread, and no matter how much you try to frame it as such, is not a valid point for the topic at hand.



    It was never a question of "does every student blindly follow his master". You're interpretation of it as such is either due to:

    1) Reading comprehension failure

    or

    2) Reading comprehension failure

    Picking either 1 or 2 will suffice.

    In the meantime, there is no reason for me to keep replying to you if you continue down this backwoods road of your own making. It isn't relevant to the topic at hand.
    Re-read the thread, especially my last post directed to you.
  7. It is Fake is offline
    It is Fake's Avatar

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    Posted On:
    7/31/2011 12:01pm

    staff
     Style: xingyi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    You are now four for fourwith people addressing your lack of reading comprehension and your poor use of the English language in two different threads.


    Yes, that means it is you that needs to re-read the threads and posts.

    I know go ahead and complain and rant.
  8. ChenPengFi is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/31/2011 12:13pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Hung Gar, Choy Lay Fut

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Matsubayashi View Post
    Martial arts students, never blindly followed their leaders.
    There only needs to be one style that was started in opposition to a master to prove out what I said.
    What utter rubbish. Total logic fail. Inverted black swan? Really?
    You have it backwards, one instance of a student blindly following his/her master would refute your statement of "never" you dipshit.
    One instance of a person not following blindly is just that, every single other student could still follow blindly and thus it would not support your assertion of "never".
    You are a fucking idiot.

    (That's 5 out of 5 btw.)
  9. Matsubayashi is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/31/2011 2:31pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Okinawan Karate

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Oh really, let's see what was said on the thread before I made my fist post:

    Quote Originally Posted by Uncle Skippy View Post
    (Puts on serious Skippy face)

    For my first 'thread starter' venture in this forum, I'd like to ask a question that has been running around my head for a while now.

    It has struck me as odd the amount of unwavering loyalty that people show to their Teacher and will defend their honor until they are blue in the face. Now, I am not saying that loyalty is a bad thing in any sense of the word, but the extreme cases that I've read on the Bullshido forums, as well as heard about locally, got me wondering just how much of the idea of a Teacher has been changed somehow when it came to the West along with the Japanese arts

    In regards to Japanese arts:

    - How has the idea and roles of Teacher and Student changed over the years, especially in reference to the introduction of Japanese martial arts to the West?

    - Is the history of the relationship of Teacher and Student in 'old' Japan consistent with what we've seen on this board and elsewhere (unwavering support)?

    - Was there a concept of a 'Master' in 'old' Japan? (Something akin to how Hatsumi is seen today)

    - As it stands today, is the idea of Teacher and Student different in Japan and, say, the United States? Or is there a fundamental difference in the relationship?

    Note: by 'old', I'm not quite sure what I mean. I think it is an open-ended interpretation to see how the relationship has evolved if anybody has info on that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Res Judicata View Post
    There are some things very deeply ingrained in Japanese culture that pass into the martial arts. It's hard to separate one from the other. Look up the concept of sempai/kohai http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Senpai_and_k%C5%8Dhai Japan has a very hierarchical culture and there's a lot of what's called "social distance" between junior and superior. Americans have perhaps the least social distance of any society...
    Quote Originally Posted by Res Judicata View Post
    Ironically, you're projecting your Americanism on to other people, something that's not correct. Social distance isn't necessarily a good thing or a bad thing, it just is what it is. Americans think low social distance is a good thing, but people in other cultures would disagree.

    Americans have a leveling, casual culture. If you had the ability, would you talk to President Obama to praise him or damn him? Ordinary Japanese would never think of such a thing with their leaders.

    Have you ever dealt with Japanese? I speak Japanese (badly), lived with a Japanese woman for several years, have been to Japan and deal with Japanese professionally. I still don't understand them. They're different from Americans (duh). Values and social expectations are different. Family structure is different.

    It's actually at least as much of an English-speaker thing as an American thing. Japanese language has honorific and humble forms, for example, that clearly demarcate roles. Even so, there's less social distance in American than in, say, Britain (especially Britain of 50+ years ago).

    Japanese society creates social distance in a way that US society does not -- Japanese will never, ever question their teachers, for example. They'll remain silent rather than ask questions. Group is far more important to Japanese than Americans. Most Americans wouldn't have a problem calling a teacher out on his or her ignorance (got me in trouble a time or two...)

    There's less social distance among Americans than Japanese. It's just fact. Not that it's good or bad, just reality. You have to understand the Japanese relationship between superior and subordinates, and especially teacher and student, to appreciate what's going on.
    Quote Originally Posted by daishi View Post
    To examplify Res's statement about Japanese society, there is an old Japanese saying about "the nail sticking up from the floor gets hammered back down," or something like that.

    I feel a lot of deference towards one's teacher derives from the atmosphere of the dojo. People can be conditioned to deify their teachers...which is bad. I am a traditionalist, so I feel there should certainly be an intimiate relationship with one's teacher. Often students would have to put complete trust in their teacher, and teachers would test student's sincerity by challenging that trust. A writer, and martial artist, once wrote "I find it odd that some long term students have never been to their sensei's house." I agree with this. Transfering the martial arts from one person to another requires a solid relationship with that person. What I am getting at is this type of relationship will naturally make one defensive of their teacher, just as one would be of a friend. The relationship is special, and people want to defend that. Plus, if its a good school, they are proud and devoted. Try running around Ohio State Universty campus with a Wolverines jacket on. Its good and healthy, in my opinion. I would even like to see some good old fashioned Dojo Storming come back. I'm at the end of a 17 hour workday, so sorry if I'm incoherent.
    Last edited by Matsubayashi; 7/31/2011 2:45pm at .
  10. Matsubayashi is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/31/2011 2:36pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Okinawan Karate

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by ChenPengFi View Post
    What utter rubbish. Total logic fail. Inverted black swan? Really?
    You have it backwards, one instance of a student blindly following his/her master would refute your statement of "never" you dipshit.
    One instance of a person not following blindly is just that, every single other student could still follow blindly and thus it would not support your assertion of "never".
    You are a fucking idiot.

    (That's 5 out of 5 btw.)
    No sir. The point was made that in old Japan, students just had no choice to follow their teachers. If that were true, than all students in old Japan blindly followed their teachers. This just isn't the case and the history of martial art styles in Japan and how they developed proves it out. Additionally, Karate students in Okinawa were always going against their master's wishes and sneaking off to get into fights to prove their skills. 500 people on this thread can complain about my reading comprehension skills and logic, I don't give a rats ass, because I know I am 100% correct in what I have said on here.
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