233489 Bullies, 3672 online  
  • Register
Our Sponsors:

Results 1 to 10 of 51
Page 1 of 6 1 2345 ... LastLast
Sponsored Links Spacer Image
  1. judoka_uk is offline
    judoka_uk's Avatar

    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    England
    Posts
    4,619

    Posted On:
    1/21/2011 11:07am

    Join us... or die
     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Okuri ashi barai How I think it should be taught.

    First watch this truly sublime video of Okano sensei practicing Okuri ashi barai.


    YouTube - 柔道 Okuri ashi baraï, 岡野功 I. Okano.mp4


    Now this video is probably how most of you have been taught and practice Okuri ashi barai


    YouTube - Okuri-Ashi-Barai


    First of all Im not saying that the above method is wrong or that it is bad technique. However, I believe the method shown in the Okano video is better , more realistic and incorporates key principles better.



    So lets look at what Okano does differently. Well he practices the technique against an uke who is retreating in a straight line and then he performs a large outward step diagonally to his right causing uke to adjust his movement pattern and creating a reaction that makes a perfect moment of opportunity for Okuri ashi barai.



    Okano begins advancing towards his retreating uke following a normal stepping pattern:





    Beginners an important note. In ashiwaza drills tori should always establish the pace of the practice. Also many beginners mis-step so tori advances with his left uke retreats with his left.



    To set a good rhythm and ensure that a correct stepping pattern is in place, assuming a right hander practicing with another right hander, rotate your sleeve hand slightly away from you and push straight forwards as if your forearm was a piston. You perform this action simultaneously with you stepping forward with your left foot. This not only ensures uke reacts appropriately, but also signals your clear control of the rhythm and direction of movement.



    After several steps Okano is comfortable with the rhythm and is ready to initiate the action-reaction sequence.


    Stepping normally with his left he prepares to take an exaggerated step diagonally outwards with his right.








    Seen from another angle:





    Mid way through the diagonal step





    The full extent of just how deep a diagonal step Okano takes, this is more for demonstration and practice purposes than for randori. To drill the concept into your movement.





    This action sets in motion ukes reaction which is to adjust his stepping pattern in a way that will bring his feet together. Simultaneously it creates a situation of what I pompously call dynamic delay.





    The red charts the direction of ukes right foot towards his left.
    Dynamic delay is very hard to capture in words or in still images, however, if you watch the video again you will see what I mean. The concept is also well demonstrated in this video


    YouTube - JUDO le perfectionnement des balayages
    Especially at around 1:40.


    Okano, in possession of perfect timing, utilises this dynamic delay to bring his sweeping foot through so that it catches ukes retreating right foot at the perfect moment.






    Seen from a different angle





    The action reaction sequence set in process by the diagonal outwards step allows Okano to accelerate the motion of the unweighted retreating right foot with his sweeping foot so that it contacts ukes left foot as it is being unweighted, but before the right foot can be re-weighted.




    As this image demonstrates ukes feet are now totally unweighted and Okanos sweeping action takes them both clear of the floor.





    From a different angle:





    The inevitable occurs, a beautiful ippon throw.





    Now, after that waffle breakdown, why I believe this to be a better model for teaching and practicing Okuri ashi barai.


    Firstly pace, pace and rhythm are fundamental to ashiwaza. In the usual method of the sideways skipping pace management by tori becomes very difficult. Uke and tori end up either in a race together to see who can do it the fastest, or completely at odds leaving tori either too far ahead or too far behind uke. The advantage of the straight walk then diagonal step method, catchy name I know, is that tori has complete control over the pace throughout and can pick his moment to initiate the diagonal step when he is comfortable with the rhythm of the drill.


    Hands and feet, because of the pace problems outlined above the sideways skip method means its very difficult for people to coordinate their hands and their feet because theyre usually in such a muddle over getting the feet right the hand action goes out the window or vice versa. Because of toris control over the pace and moment of attack the ability to coordinate the hands and feet is much increased.



    Also the drill can be broken down into stages, first walking through with a partner developing just the diagonal step, with only the hands resting on each other. Then walking through incorporating a gentle sweeping action brining the two feet together rather than a full sweep, with only the hands resting on each other. Then you can bring in the proper grips with a gentle sweep, working on coordinating kuzushi and the foot action. Then proper grips with a full sweep. This incremental method takes longer, but is a much richer learning process developing the key coordination and movement skills at each step.


    Realism. One of my major gripes with the sideways skipping drill is that people get their lesson on it then when randori comes they immediately try taking over 9000 sideways skips to get the rhythm. Their opponent isnt a retard and knows what theyre trying to do and doesnt co-operate and the result is total failure, disappointment combined with a sense of being misled and abandonment of the technique.



    Using the method in the Okano video is better because it teaches leading ukes mind and the key principles of changing direction, pace and understanding of weight transfer that are required for good ashiwaza. The awareness that it isnt about gallivanting round the mat like a prize stallion and that the key lies in subtlety and awareness of movement and moment of opportunity is a much better ashiwaza mindset to instill and much more realistic for randori and competition.



    So to close, I dont believe the side skip method is wrong or bad practice or that no one can learn Okuri ashi barai from it. However, I believe its quite a difficult drill and is easily abused and misunderstood by beginners and not so well informed coaches. I believe the method demonstrated in the Okano video is simpler, easier to learn and teaches the fundamentals more effectively.



    As a final thought Ill leave you with this video of Osawa senise now 10th dan then 8th dan teaching Okuri ashi barai.


    YouTube - Osawa Yoshimi 10 Dan Judo


    The reader will draw their own conclusions.
  2. BKR is offline
    BKR's Avatar

    My dog is cuter and smarter than yours.

    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Bonners Ferry, Idaho
    Posts
    5,146

    Posted On:
    1/21/2011 11:43am

    Join us... or die
     Style: Kodokan Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Nice post. A laptop in a coffee shop is a great place to work on this stuff I'm sure.

    My experience is that the moving backwards method is way too difficult for beginners to learn, especially with other beginners for uke. If an experienced uke works with them, then it's more likely to succeed. The fall is not easy, and uke needs to be able to work with tori in a coordinated manner. Coordinated and beginner are in general not related terms.

    I start with De Ashi Barai. The fall is easier, and there are a couple of easy drills to use to introduce it. I seriously have tied to teach that movement to beginners, and I mean true beginners, without much success. So I keep them on De Ashi Barai for a while, which can be done back and forth, sideways, and in a circle as well. After they get the knack of De Ashi Barai, the Okuri Ashi Barai is not so hard to pick up.

    Not saying it's impossible, I'm sure Okano can do it !

    The side stepping drill comes from Nage No Kata. When properly taught, it shows some key points about the throw and actually has the notion of "dynamic delay" built into it in that uke has to be a half step ahead of tori for it to be most effective. I agree that getting a real opponent to move sideways like that is pretty much pure fantasy, it is more of a principle teaching method I think. Off the cirlcle or the first step back by uke is how I catch Okuri Ashi Barai in randori, not moving sideways.


    BTW, I've already started using your "dynamic delay", it expresses the idea much better than telling people to do a stutter step and not explaining why. So you perhaps should get a copywrite or whatever on it before someone else claims they invented the term !

    My experience might disagaree with your analysis regarding how to introduce Okuri Ashi Barai to beginners, or for the first time to whoever, but the post overall is excellent and full of lessons for everyone. Okano is amazing and your analysis of his movment is spot on in my experience.

    Ben
  3. dustymars is offline

    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Lake Placid, FL
    Posts
    185

    Posted On:
    1/21/2011 11:55am


     Style: Judo

    -1
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Hum, it seems I am missing something but the method in the first video is the way Ive done it for 60 years. However, at times I will use a small circle entry and it works very well. It can be used quite effectively from a dead still stance when uke slides back with one foot then tori will make a circular entry and catch uke's foot. Hard to explain, but hopefully it is clearer than mud.
  4. judoka_uk is offline
    judoka_uk's Avatar

    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    England
    Posts
    4,619

    Posted On:
    1/21/2011 12:09pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by BKR View Post
    Nice post. A laptop in a coffee shop is a great place to work on this stuff I'm sure.
    Actual at a desk, was typing so much a mate was passing and asked how the essay was going, had to do a quick alt tab to pretend to be working on it.

    Quote Originally Posted by BKR View Post
    I start with De Ashi Barai...After they get the knack of De Ashi Barai, the Okuri Ashi Barai is not so hard to pick up.
    I thought it was a given that a beginner was introduced to De ashi barai long before Okuri ashi barai... :biggrin:

    Quote Originally Posted by BKR View Post
    My experience might disagaree with your analysis regarding how to introduce Okuri Ashi Barai to beginners, or for the first time to whoever, but the post overall is excellent and full of lessons for everyone. Okano is amazing and your analysis of his movment is spot on in my experience.

    Ben
    Well I think that given that Okuri ashi barai should be introduced relatively late in a beginners training and that by then they should have the ukemi and uke skills to cope with the situation it is doable. Although working with a more experienced uke is definitely beneficial for them. I've seen marked improvements in technique from beginners, or maybe rather they should be called intermediates, using the retreating method as opposed to the sideways skipping method.

    Quote Originally Posted by BKR View Post
    The side stepping drill comes from Nage No Kata. When properly taught, it shows some key points about the throw and actually has the notion of "dynamic delay" built into it in that uke has to be a half step ahead of tori for it to be most effective. I agree that getting a real opponent to move sideways like that is pretty much pure fantasy, it is more of a principle teaching method I think. Off the cirlcle or the first step back by uke is how I catch Okuri Ashi Barai in randori, not moving sideways.
    Shows how little kata I do that I'd forgotten that! I actually think that the diagonal side step is more helpfull in developing dynamic delay because its simpler to apply and easier to understand because tori can see how his initial step out and then pause creates a delay between his diagonal movement and uke's. I think its much harder to both apply and see clearly this effect in the Kata version. This is especially so if you explain to them the concept of dynamic delay.

    As an example we had some people come back from a training day that was run by some former european and national competitors. One of the techniques had been Okuri ashi barai taught in the kata form. This was unbeknownst to me otherwise I probably wouldn't have done okuri that day, but they said they actually find it easier to do the Okano retreating way than the kata way. Maybe just trying to soften my ego, but my incredibly scientific, non-double blind study of one isolated lesson of a handful of people, I think, shouldn't be discounted!

    Quote Originally Posted by BKR View Post
    BTW, I've already started using your "dynamic delay", it expresses the idea much better than telling people to do a stutter step and not explaining why. So you perhaps should get a copywrite or whatever on it before someone else claims they invented the term !
    Not sure if I haven't nicked it from someone else actually, might even be from that French video. I can't be arsed to travel to London to copywrite it, so if you hurry you can probably claim it for your own.
  5. BKR is offline
    BKR's Avatar

    My dog is cuter and smarter than yours.

    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Bonners Ferry, Idaho
    Posts
    5,146

    Posted On:
    1/21/2011 12:32pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Kodokan Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by dustymars View Post
    Hum, it seems I am missing something but the method in the first video is the way Ive done it for 60 years. However, at times I will use a small circle entry and it works very well. It can be used quite effectively from a dead still stance when uke slides back with one foot then tori will make a circular entry and catch uke's foot. Hard to explain, but hopefully it is clearer than mud.
    I understand what you are saying, Dusty. After a while, you don't think about what your are doing very much. I do it mostly like Okano now, although of course not as well.

    Ben
  6. BKR is offline
    BKR's Avatar

    My dog is cuter and smarter than yours.

    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Bonners Ferry, Idaho
    Posts
    5,146

    Posted On:
    1/21/2011 12:53pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Kodokan Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by judoka_uk View Post
    Actual at a desk, was typing so much a mate was passing and asked how the essay was going, had to do a quick alt tab to pretend to be working on it.


    I thought it was a given that a beginner was introduced to De ashi barai long before Okuri ashi barai... :biggrin:


    Well I think that given that Okuri ashi barai should be introduced relatively late in a beginners training and that by then they should have the ukemi and uke skills to cope with the situation it is doable. Although working with a more experienced uke is definitely beneficial for them. I've seen marked improvements in technique from beginners, or maybe rather they should be called intermediates, using the retreating method as opposed to the sideways skipping method.


    Shows how little kata I do that I'd forgotten that! I actually think that the diagonal side step is more helpfull in developing dynamic delay because its simpler to apply and easier to understand because tori can see how his initial step out and then pause creates a delay between his diagonal movement and uke's. I think its much harder to both apply and see clearly this effect in the Kata version. This is especially so if you explain to them the concept of dynamic delay.

    As an example we had some people come back from a training day that was run by some former european and national competitors. One of the techniques had been Okuri ashi barai taught in the kata form. This was unbeknownst to me otherwise I probably wouldn't have done okuri that day, but they said they actually find it easier to do the Okano retreating way than the kata way. Maybe just trying to soften my ego, but my incredibly scientific, non-double blind study of one isolated lesson of a handful of people, I think, shouldn't be discounted!


    Not sure if I haven't nicked it from someone else actually, might even be from that French video. I can't be arsed to travel to London to copywrite it, so if you hurry you can probably claim it for your own.
    I'm glad you addressed the beginners versus intermediates or maybe novices is a better term, not sure, it always depends on the individual.

    I don't have heartburn over anything you've written. If we are talking about intermediate level not beginner, then I agree with you totally. Everyone's experience varies within certain general bounds. Hell, if you can teach beginners to do it that way, more power to you!

    Maybe you should give up the history degree and just go get a degree in sports education, specialize in Judo. Go take a Bath so to speak.

    Ben
  7. judoka_uk is offline
    judoka_uk's Avatar

    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    England
    Posts
    4,619

    Posted On:
    1/21/2011 12:55pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by BKR View Post
    =!
    Maybe you should give up the history degree and just go get a degree in sports education, specialize in Judo. Go take a Bath so to speak.

    Ben
    Actually the Judo coaching degree is in Cambridge now not Bath. Oh wait you meant...
  8. BKR is offline
    BKR's Avatar

    My dog is cuter and smarter than yours.

    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Bonners Ferry, Idaho
    Posts
    5,146

    Posted On:
    1/21/2011 1:04pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Kodokan Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by judoka_uk View Post
    Actually the Judo coaching degree is in Cambridge now not Bath. Oh wait you meant...
    Well, then, do both!

    Ben
  9. judoka_uk is offline
    judoka_uk's Avatar

    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    England
    Posts
    4,619

    Posted On:
    1/21/2011 1:37pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by BKR View Post
    Well, then, do both!

    Ben
    Aye aye Cap'n.

    Also because I forgot to put it in the original post.

    All comments, critiques

    and thoughts welcome!
  10. BKR is offline
    BKR's Avatar

    My dog is cuter and smarter than yours.

    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Bonners Ferry, Idaho
    Posts
    5,146

    Posted On:
    1/21/2011 2:07pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Kodokan Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by judoka_uk View Post
    Aye aye Cap'n.

    Also because I forgot to put it in the original post.

    All comments, critiques

    and thoughts welcome!
    I can be either controlling or patronizing or both, which do you prefer?

    Please don't rage quit!

    Ben
Page 1 of 6 1 2345 ... LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Powered by vBulletin™© contact@vbulletin.com vBulletin Solutions, Inc. 2011 All rights reserved.