So I just had lunch with my Pastor...

**Lebell** · Posted On: 1/20/2011 4:44am

Jesus said 'visit the imprisoned.'
Not ' lock em up.'
A man of God has no bussiness working as a jailguard.

**DdlR** · Posted On: 1/20/2011 8:46am

Youth corrections workers have very strict professional guidelines to follow re. use of force; even BJJ isn't necessarily FTW in this case, or rather, you may well win the "fight" but lose your job.

The best training course for professionals in this area I know of was developed by Dr. William Paul (judo 5th dan, former US Olympian, biomechanics expert and all-around cool guy) back in the '70s and '80s. Unfortunately, he died young and his system never spread much beyond the Massachusetts mental health care field.

**Lebell** · Posted On: 1/20/2011 9:57am

Don't get me wrong, I think it's a very positive devellopment, he basically goes from 'grab my dick' to 'grab my wrist'.
more aikido for catholics!

**Rivington** · Posted On: 1/20/2011 10:02am

Gee, could it be that the people running a youth corrections center don't see the inmates as enemies who need to be killed or even defeated for some reason?

**Vince Tortelli** · Posted On: 1/20/2011 10:29am

Originally Posted by Lebell

Jesus said 'visit the imprisoned.'
Not ' lock em up.'
A man of God has no bussiness working as a jailguard.

I say it falls under the heading of "render unto Caesar what is Caesar's".:wbossman

To Rivington: One of the reasons I think BJJ (insert judo, freestyle wrestling, etc.) is a workable option for corrections officers is because it offers a variety of pinning and control positions, not just the "tap, snap or nap!" moves. Something like a standing arm drag to back control works fine in a corrections setting, where you finish up by controlling the problem causer until the other guys show up with the cuffs.

And of course you learn a wonderful array of joint dislocations and strangulations because, after all, "some men, you just can't reach."

**Rivington** · Posted On: 1/20/2011 10:31am

I'm not against BJJ in a control/comealong format of course, but the lolkido business upthread is silly. "Self defense" in the context of trying to rehabilitate kids who have done crimes is not the same as "self defense" on the deadly streets of Methhead, Alabama or wherever the OP is from.

**Vince Tortelli** · Posted On: 1/20/2011 10:44am

Originally Posted by Rivington

I'm not against BJJ in a control/comealong format of course, but the lolkido business upthread is silly. "Self defense" in the context of trying to rehabilitate kids who have done crimes is not the same as "self defense" on the deadly streets of Methhead, Alabama or wherever the OP is from.

Bro, why you gotta pull the arms and legs off my strawman?

Although I have no experience with "youth correctional centers" I'd imagine that use of force incidents would be higher than when dealing with adult prisoners, just because 16-17 year olds are idiots with no judgement. In that case the effectiveness/ineffectiveness of the self defense training could very well be relevant.

**DdlR** · Posted On: 1/20/2011 12:54pm

Ahem ...

Originally Posted by DdlR

Youth corrections workers have very strict professional guidelines to follow re. use of force; even BJJ isn't necessarily FTW in this case, or rather, you may well win the "fight" but lose your job.

The best training course for professionals in this area I know of was developed by Dr. William Paul (judo 5th dan, former US Olympian, biomechanics expert and all-around cool guy) back in the '70s and '80s. Unfortunately, he died young and his system never spread much beyond the Massachusetts mental health care field.

There's a lot more to this than first meets the eye. If you have to physically control a kid who's been sexually abused, for example, some "control positions" can trigger panic that escalates the situation beyond what is warranted. A perfectly effective martial arts/combat sport takedown or pin can be expressly forbidden under institutional policies because of the danger of the subject being injured.

The real problem is that institutions typically (not inevitably) don't want to commit to funding realistic, effective training in systems specifically designed for professional "duty of care" self defense/restraint situations. Unfortunately, that means you end up with orderlies/warders/etc. who may have to physically control angry/panicked teenagers based on a two day "therapeutic intervention" course. Way too many kids die or are seriously injured every year in these scenarios, due to the improvised actions of well-meaning but ill-trained staff.

**Soldiermedic** · Posted On: 1/20/2011 1:39pm

Originally Posted by DdlR

Ahem ...

There's a lot more to this than first meets the eye. If you have to physically control a kid who's been sexually abused, for example, some "control positions" can trigger panic that escalates the situation beyond what is warranted. A perfectly effective martial arts/combat sport takedown or pin can be expressly forbidden under institutional policies because of the danger of the subject being injured.

The real problem is that institutions typically (not inevitably) don't want to commit to funding realistic, effective training in systems specifically designed for professional "duty of care" self defense/restraint situations. Unfortunately, that means you end up with orderlies/warders/etc. who may have to physically control angry/panicked teenagers based on a two day "therapeutic intervention" course. Way too many kids die or are seriously injured every year in these scenarios, due to the improvised actions of well-meaning but ill-trained staff.

This is exactly right. Although I did come across a few staff that would get a little too punitive in restraint and a little too eager to initiate one.

I worked in "staff secure" facilities for children for almost 8 years, and used 3 different therapeutic crisis intervention models(TCI,CPI and CALM) and for the most part training was 2 days, never consisted of any real situations you face on the floor(what do you do when a kid strips and starts peeing on another resident?!), and the restraints, escorts and removal were all done on completely non resistant staff. This means that when you actually do have to restrain a child, things never go the way they are supposed to and someone(usually staff) always gets hurt. Towards the end of my time I trained in CALM, where there actually is a testing with resistance, which made a huge difference. My last program was the best, we just did a removal and drop off into a safe mag-locked STEPS(Students Talking and Exploring Possible Solutions) room. So therapeutic it almost makes me cry