LEOs and MMA

**Diesel_tke** · Posted On: 1/18/2011 8:50pm

Originally Posted by kcvmac

For my Security course, for use of force, we called in a local police DT Instructor, who taught good striking fundamentals, but his cuffing/R&C was lacking. He told me after that he was teaching what was "approved for the timeframe", and would have gladly shown some serious wrestling given more time. Also mentioned that the stuff he usually teaches is the same way- mostly basic kickboxing and ground "survival", because of pressure to keep it brief, and that the "approved" wrestling techniques are generally ****. This is the vibe I get from most DT. Does it hold true elsewhere?

Yeah, that's par for the course. When I went through the academy, then advanced DT course, you always get what is state approved, and then you have unofficial classes on the weekends. That is where you learn better stuff.

**Team Python** · Posted On: 1/19/2011 11:46am

Originally Posted by Diesel_tke

Yeah, that's par for the course. When I went through the academy, then advanced DT course, you always get what is state approved, and then you have unofficial classes on the weekends. That is where you learn better stuff.

The bad thing about DT training at academies is that ususally the persons in charge of the DT program either have martial arts experience that useless for the tasks of law enforcement or they have no martial art experience at all.

For instance when I was a DT instructor one of the programs we had to teach recruits was called M.A.C.H. don't ask me what it stands for because I never cared for it. It sucked big time....and to come and find out that the guys that developed this stupid course did not have any experience as street cops....WTF.

I wanted to revamp the whole program and make it more realistic and use techniques that would benefit the deputies on the street or in the jails. We were turned down.....liabilty was the key factor. **** I think it is more of a liability when a cop gets his/her ass beat or killed while on duty.

**kcvmac** · Posted On: 1/19/2011 2:01pm

So is it a problem of not having the right material available, or fear of being sued? Because over here, liability ain't an issue, we can't sue people for stupidity. We just lack any quality period in DT, and have no quality control, at least at the municipal and provincial levels. Apparently the guys in Border Services get some pretty good training, but that's here-say.

**Team Python** · Posted On: 1/19/2011 5:06pm

Originally Posted by kcvmac

So is it a problem of not having the right material available, or fear of being sued? Because over here, liability ain't an issue, we can't sue people for stupidity. We just lack any quality period in DT, and have no quality control, at least at the municipal and provincial levels. Apparently the guys in Border Services get some pretty good training, but that's here-say.

It is more of the issue of recruits sustaining injuries during the academy. It also has to do with the costs as well. Spend the least amount of money on DT training and just meet the states hourly requirements on this subject is the norm.

There is only one department that I know of that takes DT training serious and that is L.A.P.D. They have an excellent DT course and spend a good amount of that training on ground control techniques.

Fortunately the agency I worked for did allow the carotid restraint which is one good technique they allowed us to teach. However not a lot of time is spent on it therefore not too many deputies felt comfortable using it. Since I had a BJJ background I used the carotid restraint more than my equipment such as the baton or pepper spray.

It has been my experience that pepper spray does not work against intoxicated individuals and batons won't work if the suspect is charging at you. You will maybe get one shot in and that won't have the desired effect because he will close the distance real quick. I used a baton only a few times in my 15 years as a LEO and one time that I remember like it was yesterday was when we went after a subject that had walked away from a Level 1 prison (Fire Camp). After chasing the guy for what seemed like forever I hit him hard on the leg and he guy looked at me like I just hit him with a rubber stick....no effect. **** I just threw down the baton, took him to the ground and choked him out instead.

I do private training for LEO"s and Corporate security personnel. The training I provide is useful for these job fields. Since I worked the streets many years I have a general idea what works and what doesn't.

**Vince Tortelli** · Posted On: 1/19/2011 9:48pm

Originally Posted by Team Python

The bad thing about DT training at academies is that ususally the persons in charge of the DT program either have martial arts experience that useless for the tasks of law enforcement or they have no martial art experience at all.

Ding ding ding! We have a winner. Also there's a fear of having the students do anything that causes sweat, or you know, pain. Which could lead to a lawsuit against the Department of Corrections. (I've always wondered if a corrections officer {who usually aren't allowed firearms, pepper spray, etc. while on duty} who got the snot kicked out of him/her by an inmate would have a viable complaint for "they didn't train me enough" but I digress).

The SSGT (Strike, Something I can't remember, Grapple Tactics) program we went through was decent in its fundamentals (shrimp, bridge and roll mount escape, sprawl vs a tackle) but it was only 4-6 hours out of the academy. Because every grappler knows you mastered those three moves in your first 2-3 classes...

That said the DT instructor was a very cool guy, he actually had me and my brother come out to his Han Mu Do school to show some simple sweeps get ups from the guard.

**monghu98** · Posted On: 1/28/2011 9:06am

SSGT - Stratigic Self-Defense & Grappiling Tactics. Very good program.

One of the main problems I believe that a lot of LEO DT programs have is the idea that you can have X-martial art for police officers. In other words they have this idea that you can just staple whatever martial arts to police work. exp. Judo for police, Akido for police, BJJ for police. Even a lot of the millitary guys iv talked to have said the problem is the same when looking at their combatives training which is basicaly BJJ now.

I think some one is going to have to finaly realize that police work should evolve into its own system off training versus just trying to imitate other arts.

**Gezere** · Posted On: 1/30/2011 3:57pm

Even a lot of the millitary guys iv talked to have said the problem is the same when looking at their combatives training which is basicaly BJJ now.

The combatives program is not just BJJ. Yes its the basis but if they are just doing BJJ then they are not training properly. That's the problem I think we have now. We have a very good and effective program that isn't being trained properly.