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  1. Sang is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/09/2011 6:24am


     Style: MMA, Yoga

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I'd like to add to this that even adding only one day a week of weight training will help noticeably. Not many people here will be able to manage 2-3 of these days on top of full time MA training without one of the two suffering.

    Since its for combat athletes shouldn't a section on improving 'explosiveness' be added? Unless its been dis proven recently i thought the tempo you lift at was just as important as the rep/sets. Lift explosively to become explosive, slow vs fast twitch muscle fibers.. correct me if i'm wrong.
    "Boxing is the art of hitting an opponent from the furthest distance away, exposing the least amount of your body while getting into position to punch with maximum leverage and not getting hit."
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  2. TaeBo_Master is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/09/2011 6:49am

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     Style: Judo, Jujitsu

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    Quote Originally Posted by MMAMickey View Post
    Of course, I believe the shoulder issues associated with dips is contributory to their removal from the stronglifts 5x5 program.

    However, improper benching also causes wear and tear on the shoulder joints which can be just as detrimental. In fact, pretty much every freeweight compound lift has potential for injury I would imagine, which of course is an incentive to make sure you start off light and learn the movemnt.
    Yes, of course everything has the potential for injury. I didn't mean to imply that dips were the only exercise that had such a risk. Just that dips require a particular focus on technique, and the risk is higher than in other exercises.

    And yes, Bench Press is another commonly injurious exercise. Probably the second most. But that problem largely comes because lifters never focus on developing their horizontal puling strength to near the degree they do on Bench Press. If your pushing and pulling strength are at least close to equal, that helps add a lot more balance to the shoulder.
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  3. Emevas is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/09/2011 8:21am

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     Style: Boxing/Wrestling

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sang View Post
    I'd like to add to this that even adding only one day a week of weight training will help noticeably. Not many people here will be able to manage 2-3 of these days on top of full time MA training without one of the two suffering.

    Since its for combat athletes shouldn't a section on improving 'explosiveness' be added? Unless its been dis proven recently i thought the tempo you lift at was just as important as the rep/sets. Lift explosively to become explosive, slow vs fast twitch muscle fibers.. correct me if i'm wrong.
    "Explosiveness" or "power" as it is technically defined is actually a product of maximal strength. Improving your maximal strength will improve your power, as when you are lifting for maximal strength you are still attempting to lift as fast as possible, the bar simply moves at a slow speed due to the amount of weight on it.

    That was actually one of my two critiques of the original post. Power actually does not require olympic lifts to develop, it simples requires dynamic training. The guys at Westside Barbell develop power with dynamic effort on the powerlifts (squats, deads, and benching) by using 40-60% of their 1rm and lifting for 1-3 reps with a focus on max bar speed. They'll also utilize bands and chains in order to take advantage of the law of accomidating resistance and teach their bodies to accelerate past its normal stopping point.

    Not to say that Olympic lifts aren't great for power development, but it's less about the movement itself and more how it is trained. You can't train an olympic lift slowly, which is why it's so great at power development, but you CAN train a squat and deadlift quickly, which also allows it to be a good choice.


    As for the exercise selection, I would include some manner of horizontal row as well. DB/BB/Chest supported row/etc.


    Regarding the myth of strength ruining technique, I can attest that a high level of strength before having your technical foundation CAN make it difficult to learn technique, simply because it's very easy to rely on strength to "make" technique work, at which point you aren't employing superior leverage and instead are simply muscling ****. It's an easy way to pick up bad habits. But a good coach or a strong foundation can overcome this.
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  4. MMAMickey is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/09/2011 8:29am

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     Style: Boxing.MMA

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    Just for the record, it was not my intention to proritise Olympic lifting for power development. The video was meant to be an example of Sport specific training, and their mention under explosive exercises was just as one of many options. I have said in a subsequent post that I personally do not use Olympic lifting for power development and instead use alternate means.

    Sang: thanks for bringing up the dynamic lifting principle, I clearly forgot to include that in the OP, which sucks as I had been arguing that with one of my training partners only the day before.

    EDIT: I also intended to include some form of horizontal row, however evidently this also escaped my memory at the time of posting.

    Thanks for the replies guys.
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  5. Burnsey is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/09/2011 1:56pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by MMAMickey View Post
    This is why I mentioned grappling drills as also being good for power development. Provided you have the requisite strength, what would help your power for suplexing guys more? Clean and Jerks or repititions of suplexing someone onto a crashmat?
    +1

    I sometimes think a lot of people get carried away with supplemental training. Strength is an awesome thing to have in your arsenal - but it's certainly not the best. There is nothing as sport specific as actually doing the sport. A good workout on the pads will improve speed, technique, endurance, even range and timing in a much more specific way than a session in the weight room will. Of course that's not to say you shouldn't train for strength - that's what this whole thread is about. It's probably worth saying however that if you're getting tired/busy getting to class is more important than getting to the gym.

    Having said that - I found this article the other day and was wondering what anyone's thoughts on it were as a training program. I've searched but couldn't find it discussed elsewhere. http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_..._and_power&cr=
  6. DAYoung is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/09/2011 3:11pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by MMAMickey View Post
    Well, according to the text 'Combat Core', the main benefits of squats and deadlifts include hip extension, which is present in all committed power movements, as well as strengthening the core to the purpose of 'bracing' and protecting the spine.

    In terms of the pushing and pulling motions, compound pushing motions (bench press/OHP) are useful for both grappling and striking in terms of all round strength, but for striking the strength of the shoulder can be useful for injury prevention and balance.

    The pulling motions, although having obvious uses for grappling, have an underrated use in striking for decelleration of punches and injury prevention. The lat recruitment in these movements also supports the spine and aids a strong core.

    Emevas raised the point that weighted Dips may be better for martial artists than bench presing because of the different distribution of force (Dips put less on the chest and more on the shoulders/triceps) - After having trained that way for about 6months now I am inclined to agree.
    Thanks for this. Is this assuming a certain level of muscle cultivation and fitness?

    For example, I need to do more bench presses because my chest is under-developed. This doesn't mean I can't do dips, but that I've more catching-up work to do. (Having lost muscle after my Judo injury.)

    In some cases, the regions are overlapping, e.g. neck work. I've a really weak upper back and neck - the areas were immobile for a while.

    But do we assume a certain basic general physique for much of this?
    Last edited by DAYoung; 1/09/2011 3:43pm at . Reason: For some reason, I wrote 'optimal' instead of 'basic'. i haz teh stewpidz
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  7. TaeBo_Master is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/09/2011 7:29pm

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     Style: Judo, Jujitsu

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sang View Post
    I'd like to add to this that even adding only one day a week of weight training will help noticeably. Not many people here will be able to manage 2-3 of these days on top of full time MA training without one of the two suffering.

    Since its for combat athletes shouldn't a section on improving 'explosiveness' be added? Unless its been dis proven recently i thought the tempo you lift at was just as important as the rep/sets. Lift explosively to become explosive, slow vs fast twitch muscle fibers.. correct me if i'm wrong.
    Emevas already said most of what needs to be said on this topic. I'll add that the muscle fiber type that is recruited is more dependent on the intensity of the lift, not that actual tempo. High intensity lifts are going to predominantly recruit the fast-twitch fibers, independent of the actual tempo the bar is moving.

    Think of it this way: When the weight is really really heavy, your muscle fibers are trying to produce as much force as possible. They're contracting as hard and fast as they can. The external weight is what's keeping the overall movement slow, because it nearly overpowers the muscular contraction. But imagine if you were squatting your maximum weight, and then all of a sudden the bar disappeared. You would suddenly accelerate and perform a great jump.

    Muscles produce force. Force = mass x acceleration. You can increase the force production through the manipulation of either of these variables. When you get to the really-super-advanced level, then yes there are some specificity concerns that dictate tempo training should be adjusted. However, for basic strength development, you're essentially just focused on force output.

    Bottom line: Unless you've maximized your Limit Strength, getting stronger is going to make you faster. (Or at least increase your speed potential. Your MA training has a role in there as well.)
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  8. Gypsy Jazz is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/11/2011 1:34am


     Style: Does exercise count?

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    The amount of thoughts I have on this subject are enough to REALLY derail a quality thread. Apologies in advance for injecting so many thoughts. I should really make my own thread(s) for other people to derail.

    1. On point here, this article by Martin Rooney (trainer to several UFC fighters) is really great http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_...rrior_training

    For the lazy, Rooney advocates sticking to mostly using the big lifts at high weights for low reps. He feels this allows you to gain both power and endurance because being able to power through someone with ease will leave you feeling fresher.

    2. The point with any athletic training is going to be specificity or exercises with high carry-over, though I seem to recall that doing something too close to the actual movement itself can screw up form, which makes some degree of sense. I believe the experiments were with baseball pitchers.

    My intent in mentioning this is not to get people trying to do absurd weighted bosu balance bullshit, but to consider what movements they can do which closely mimic the movements they do. It's an untested thought, but I think that a quick alternating forward lunge (left then right, etc) is moderately close to the way you need to explode from a penetration step. Not that you should or shouldn't do this, but it makes sense to think about the movements you select in that framework. Doing a primarily unilateral movement in your sport? Try training it unilaterally at least SOMETIMES.

    The exception to that idea is if you are adressing issues of muscular balance and/or injury prevention. I've never done a damn thing that resembles a dumbbell external rotation, but it's a nice way to keep my shoulders happy.

    I'll stop there for now because I think I may be in meandering mind mode.
  9. MMAMickey is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/11/2011 5:03pm

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     Style: Boxing.MMA

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    Quote Originally Posted by DAYoung View Post
    Thanks for this. Is this assuming a certain level of muscle cultivation and fitness?

    For example, I need to do more bench presses because my chest is under-developed. This doesn't mean I can't do dips, but that I've more catching-up work to do. (Having lost muscle after my Judo injury.)

    In some cases, the regions are overlapping, e.g. neck work. I've a really weak upper back and neck - the areas were immobile for a while.

    But do we assume a certain basic general physique for much of this?
    I wouldn't say so really.

    If you are under developed or weak in an area, the starting weight should just be lower.

    for those who are at a low starting point, be it by injury or otherwise, a program such as stronglifts includes volume work to increase work capacity, as well as provide some muscular hypertrophy.

    EDIT: the presumption here is that the injuries are healed before starting.
    Last edited by MMAMickey; 1/11/2011 5:20pm at .
    "The hero and the coward both feel the same thing, but the hero projects his fear onto his opponent while the coward runs. 'Fear'. It's the same thing, but it's what you do with it that matters". - Cus D'Amato
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  10. judoka_uk is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/11/2011 5:48pm

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     Style: Judo

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    Quote Originally Posted by Emevas View Post
    Regarding the myth of strength ruining technique, I can attest that a high level of strength before having your technical foundation CAN make it difficult to learn technique, simply because it's very easy to rely on strength to "make" technique work, at which point you aren't employing superior leverage and instead are simply muscling ****. It's an easy way to pick up bad habits. But a good coach or a strong foundation can overcome this.
    Coming from a martial art where the strength vs technique thing is pretty much the number one beginner debate.

    Your response should be emphasised.

    The simple mantra is:
    Use strength/power to augment technique not replace technique.

    Also fitness, strength, explosivity, flexibility etc... all help you develop technique quicker provided competent instruction.
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