228113 Bullies, 4793 online  
  • Register
Our Sponsors:

Results 411 to 420 of 515
Page 42 of 52 FirstFirst ... 323839404142 43444546 ... LastLast
Sponsored Links Spacer Image
  1. Matt Phillips is offline
    Matt Phillips's Avatar

    NOTE TO SELF - MOAR GRAPPLE - GET A NORMAL HAIR CUT - REPEAT

    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    Bahstun
    Posts
    9,755

    Posted On:
    9/02/2011 3:44pm

    supporting member
     Style: Submission Grappling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Vince Tortelli View Post
    "Entrapment" is a legal term that has a specific series of factors that must be met before we can label X conduct entrapment. The same goes for burglary, assault, arson, excessive force, wrongful death, etc. The bait patrols don't meet the specific standards required for entrapment.

    Calling them that is like saying someone who was convicted of manslaughter is a murderer. Technically it just ain't so.
    The problem with the "bait patrols" is that in this case it's not police officers representing the people of NYC, it's a group of civilians looking to create a mugging or hate crime so they have an excuse to intervene. It doesn't have to be technical entrapment to be stupid, illadvised and disruptive to the peace. The Pink Panthers used to use this tactic back in the 80's. It was stupid then, and it still is.
    Now darkness comes; you don't know if the whales are coming. - Royce Gracie


    KosherKickboxer has t3h r34l chi sao

    In De Janerio, in blackest night,
    Luta Livre flees the fight,
    Behold Maeda's sacred tights;
    Beware my power... Blue Lantern's light!
  2. Vince Tortelli is offline

    Light Heavyweight

    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Posts
    4,000

    Posted On:
    9/02/2011 3:53pm

    supporting member
     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Phillips View Post
    The problem with the "bait patrols" is that in this case it's not police officers representing the people of NYC, it's a group of civilians looking to create a mugging or hate crime so they have an excuse to intervene. It doesn't have to be technical entrapment to be stupid, illadvised and disruptive to the peace. The Pink Panthers used to use this tactic back in the 80's. It was stupid then, and it still is.
    I'm not saying it's the best idea since sliced bread, I'm just saying it's not entrapment. The only problem I see with these patrols is the collateral damage that could possibly ensue because the only way the average street thug is going to hit the broadside of a barn is if he is inside it at the time, and the end result is little old ladies in 3rd floor apartments on the opposite side of the street from the intended target get killed.

    As for the RLSH "creating" the hate crimes/muggings, it take two to tango. The fact that we have people who apparently have an irresistable impulse to pillage and plunder anything that looks helpless/comically stereotypical worries me a lot more than guys and gals out playing Daredevil.
  3. Rivington is offline
    Rivington's Avatar

    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    East Bay, CA
    Posts
    4,733

    Posted On:
    9/02/2011 3:58pm

    supporting member
     Style: Taijiquan/Shuai-Chiao/BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Did the NYI actually snag anyone on their bait patrols, or do they just faff around a bit on their skateboards and then go home in time for the next WoW guild raid?
  4. Permalost is offline
    Permalost's Avatar

    pro nonsense self defense

    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    San Diego
    Posts
    12,585

    Posted On:
    9/02/2011 3:59pm

    supporting member
     Style: FMA, dumbek, Indian clubs

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Vince Tortelli View Post
    "Entrapment" is a legal term that has a specific series of factors that must be met before we can label X conduct entrapment. The same goes for burglary, assault, arson, excessive force, wrongful death, etc. The bait patrols don't meet the specific standards required for entrapment.

    Calling them that is like saying someone who was convicted of manslaughter is a murderer. Technically it just ain't so.
    This is why I only said it parenthetically and said to put it to the side, because the issues of the bait patrol are bigger than entrapment.
  5. Vince Tortelli is offline

    Light Heavyweight

    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Posts
    4,000

    Posted On:
    9/02/2011 4:09pm

    supporting member
     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Permalost View Post
    This is why I only said it parenthetically and said to put it to the side, because the issues of the bait patrol are bigger than entrapment.
    Point taken. I just enjoy being a pedantic jerk.

    Something that bugs me:
    How does bait patrol handle it when they do "catch" someone? Do they make a citizen's arrest and then hold them for the LEOs? That has the potential to play out like an episode of Bonanza I once saw, Hoss has pounded a group of outlaws into mush with his bare hands, and when the sheriff arrives on the scene the bandits accuse Mr. Cartwright of attacking them unprovoked.

    Quote Originally Posted by Head Cattle Rustler
    Sheriff, who does it look like attacked who?
    Cut to Hoss in the jail cell. The only sensible notion I can come up with is to inflict crippling nonlethal damage to the miscreants, to at least prevent them from committing any more assaults until their arm/leg/rib heals, but that opens up a whole new can of worms.
  6. sambosteve is offline
    sambosteve's Avatar

    Stillness is death

    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    NYC
    Posts
    3,892

    Posted On:
    9/02/2011 10:22pm

    Business Class Supporting Member
     NY Combat Sambo Style: combat sambo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Yes, has the NYI ever caught anyone? This seems be be absent from every story I have read about the bait patrol operation.

    Secondly, if they did, what would they do? Would they reveal their identities so they could testify (the anonymous ones)? Would they simply restain the person and call the cops (assuming they got there in time and could)?

    Thirdly, it scares me that the NYI is paying with legal definitions so as to protect their operation. Technically, maybe its not entrapment, but the fact that they say "we are not cops, that does not count for us" suggests an attitude that plays fast and loose with the law.

    Regarding not inducing a crime, sure there may be a mugger or rapist out there waiting to attack, but, by putting the bait out there, you are urging someone to act criminally inthat moment. Of course this is my lay, non-legal opinion. In the end, this type of rationale is a slipperly slope. Particularly when some of the NYI are masked and unaccountable for what they do. When people are anonymous and unaccountable, there is a greater chance of abuse.

    As an aside, I worry about the "bait" who can't defend themselves long enough for back up to come, or does not even see an attack coming and can't defend themselves. Attacks can literally take/last seconds...not nearly long enough for your hidden commrades to get there and assist. I would hate to see your bait lying on the ground stabbed or shot with you guys standing around realizing you made a serious mistake.
    One of the best Bullshido investigations ever written: http://www.bullshido.org/David_Kujawski_Investigation

    "disgruntled ex student who couldn't hack training with Dave and his material and opted out (could be called pussied out) of training to go to Sambo" - Mor Sao
  7. Lebell is offline
    Lebell's Avatar

    Just waiting for the paperboy.

    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Lolland
    Posts
    12,496

    Posted On:
    9/03/2011 4:08am

    supporting member
     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Rivington View Post
    Did the NYI actually snag anyone on their bait patrols, or do they just faff around a bit on their skateboards and then go home in time for the next WoW guild raid?
    EXACTLY!
    It took me ages to get my gearlevel to 365ish, then you spend the next two hours waiting for the raidgroup to be complete, and when the last two dudes finally join up (always a tank or healer amongst them) it's like ' yeah sorry the crimefighting took a little bit longer than usual..'

    in the meanwhile 23 people are staring at the doors of the Bastion of Twilight for two hours.
    Times like that I just wanna teleport through the internets and strangle them.
  8. sambosteve is offline
    sambosteve's Avatar

    Stillness is death

    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    NYC
    Posts
    3,892

    Posted On:
    9/03/2011 11:30am

    Business Class Supporting Member
     NY Combat Sambo Style: combat sambo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Lampa,

    Looks like you article is stirring some debate in the RLSH community:

    Part 1- http://www.reallifesuperheroes.org/2...heroes-part-1/

    Part 2 - http://www.reallifesuperheroes.org/2...heroes-part-2/
    One of the best Bullshido investigations ever written: http://www.bullshido.org/David_Kujawski_Investigation

    "disgruntled ex student who couldn't hack training with Dave and his material and opted out (could be called pussied out) of training to go to Sambo" - Mor Sao
  9. Kempo Chris is offline
    Kempo Chris's Avatar

    Registered Member

    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Staten Island, NY
    Posts
    519

    Posted On:
    9/03/2011 12:21pm


     Style: The Kempo, Kickboxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Bait patrols are only a small part of what the NYI does. I have not taken part in them myself, so I can not speak too in depth about it. I was giving the information as I know it.
    The team has made a good difference with our safety patrols in deterring and stopping crime and our outreach has been very successful as well.

    The team works with police. We report things to the police and we do not hide our identities from them. We follow the law at all times.
  10. omoplatypus is offline
    omoplatypus's Avatar

    Merry Christmas! shitter's full...

    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Posts
    4,331

    Posted On:
    9/03/2011 1:47pm

    supporting member
     Style: BJJ/Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    providing the opportunity to commit a crime does not equal entrapment.

    vince could take some weed from the evidence locker, throw it on the ground on a sidewalk, hide behind a dumpster, and wait for some punk kid to pick it up and carry it off.

    boom, possession of a controlled substance.

    nobody forced the kid to do it. nobody compelled him to do it. there were no circumstances present to say that he did it this one time but wouldn't have done it another time.

    bait patrols = stupid. the do not, in any form, equal entrapment of any kind.
    --------

    Quote Originally Posted by it is fake View Post
    yeah, normally i'd get a quote, but couldn't be bothered.
Page 42 of 52 FirstFirst ... 323839404142 43444546 ... LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Powered by vBulletin™© contact@vbulletin.com vBulletin Solutions, Inc. 2011 All rights reserved.