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  1. zacharycbruce is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/02/2011 7:10am

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by BKR View Post
    You really don't know what you are talking about, do you?

    Ben
    Please tell me where my logic is lacking!

    And please let me know what it is that makes ippon ippon.

    Also, I put this in YMAS for a reason, perhaps so people wouldn't take it so seriously...
  2. CrackFox is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/02/2011 7:15am

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    Quote Originally Posted by BKR View Post
    Yes, I've also heard top level referees complaining about the same thing regarding other referees. Of course, the complainers were judo guys who had competed a lot, up to lower level international events.

    There was always a debate about how much experience was needed to be a good referee at whatever level of competition to be reffed. None of the highest level refs in the US, at least, that I know of were competitive at the highest levels. OK, I know of a couple of younger guys now, come to think of it, but neither went to the Olympics or WC as far as I know.

    Ben
    I haven't been involved in judo long enough to know which side of the debate I stand on, I just know that the debate exists. On a gut feeling level I think actual reffing experience is the most important factor to being a good ref, but I wouldn't like being reffed my someone who had never taken any real interest in competing.
  3. CrackFox is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/02/2011 7:20am

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    Quote Originally Posted by zacharycbruce View Post
    Please tell me where my logic is lacking!
    As I see it, you're taking a very abstract, high level view of these opinions which all have the same material outcome.

    The referee makes a judgement of whether the throw meets the definition of ippon and either calls it or doesn't.
  4. judoka_uk is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/02/2011 7:34am

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    Quote Originally Posted by CrackFox View Post
    I haven't been involved in judo long enough to know which side of the debate I stand on, I just know that the debate exists. On a gut feeling level I think actual reffing experience is the most important factor to being a good ref, but I wouldn't like being reffed my someone who had never taken any real interest in competing.
    In an ideal world every referee would be a minimum competitive 1st dan.

    However, refereeing is a thankless job that requires continual revalidation, courses and usually a minimum committment to referee at x number of tournaments a year. Most people don't have the ability to make that kind of time sacrifice as well as regularly practicing Judo whilst juggling a job and family. So refereeing tends to be done by the retired, the inactive or those who're on the periphery of a club - WAGS, parents etc...
  5. CrackFox is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/02/2011 7:57am

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    Quote Originally Posted by judoka_uk View Post
    However, refereeing is a thankless job that requires continual revalidation, courses and usually a minimum committment to referee at x number of tournaments a year. Most people don't have the ability to make that kind of time sacrifice as well as regularly practicing Judo whilst juggling a job and family. So refereeing tends to be done by the retired, the inactive or those who're on the periphery of a club - WAGS, parents etc...
    Yeah, I do realise that reffing is going to cut into your available time for actually doing judo in a big way, but I would rather be reffed by a veteran than a bureaucrat or WAG. Still, a semi competent ref is better than no ref, I suppose, and when it comes down to it, having a history of making good calls is more important than what you did before you started reffing.
  6. BKR is online now
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    Posted On:
    1/02/2011 8:22am

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    Quote Originally Posted by zacharycbruce View Post
    Please tell me where my logic is lacking!

    And please let me know what it is that makes ippon ippon.

    Also, I put this in YMAS for a reason, perhaps so people wouldn't take it so seriously...
    Oh, so you are trolling. Damn me, I fell for it again!

    It has nothing to do with logic, btw. Logic can be internally correct and come to the wrong conclusion because of incorrect/or lack of premise.

    And I already answered your question regarding what makes ippon ippon.

    Ben
  7. BKR is online now
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    Posted On:
    1/02/2011 8:32am

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     Style: Kodokan Judo

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    Quote Originally Posted by CrackFox View Post
    I haven't been involved in judo long enough to know which side of the debate I stand on, I just know that the debate exists. On a gut feeling level I think actual reffing experience is the most important factor to being a good ref, but I wouldn't like being reffed my someone who had never taken any real interest in competing.
    It is generally thought, and is my experience, that a referee should have a decent amount of contest experience to be a good referee. Exactly how much for which level of competition is debatable. What is very important is that the referee in question understand Judo. This takes experience in Judo of several years, again, depending on the level of refereeing involved. Many, many IJF A level refs, who do a good job at the Olympics and the World Championships, never even came close to competing at that level.

    Other things are important such as the ability to remain calm under pressure, and work well in very stressful conditions. Imagine reffing the finals at the WC or Olympics in a tight match! I have reffed at collegiate and High School nationals, and various ladder tournaments, and that was pretty stressful. National points are on the line, coaches are yelling, trying to influence you, players are doing their influence the ref bits, trying to play the rules right up to the line and beyond if they can get away with it.

    All the time, the ref is being evaluated constantly on his/her performance by a jury of high level referees. Mistakes an cost the ref his/her license level, after years of training, travelling at your own expense as a volunteer.

    I spent literally tens of thousands of dollars and I only made it to national level 2 referee before I quit and let my license lapse. The olympic level refs have spent many, many times more than that.

    So, a lot of things go in to making a good referee. If you want to ref kids matches at local/regional events, it's not so tough, and can be fun. Get serious, and the fun stops.

    Kind of like competing seriously in any sport.

    Ben
  8. zacharycbruce is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/02/2011 8:34am

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    Quote Originally Posted by CrackFox View Post
    As I see it, you're taking a very abstract, high level view of these opinions which all have the same material outcome.

    The referee makes a judgement of whether the throw meets the definition of ippon and either calls it or doesn't.
    Ahh!

    Yes, I have often been told that I look at thing from a very abstract point of view, at times this seems to be a problem, not that it worries me much because I don't really know any different!

    I really didn't mean to upset anybody with my post, I did want to challenge people a bit in their way of thinking.

    People are of course quite welcome to continue to argue over whether a throw is truly deserving of ippon, or what ippon means, how the definition has changed, or how incompetent any certain referee is. I think that kind of discussion could even be helpful for (lower level) referee's to expand or share their knowledge and experience.

    I don't think I'm going to pursue my dreams of becoming a referee, though. I don't think I can handle the stress of all the scrutiny!
  9. BKR is online now
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    Posted On:
    1/02/2011 8:36am

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     Style: Kodokan Judo

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    Quote Originally Posted by judoka_uk View Post
    In an ideal world every referee would be a minimum competitive 1st dan.

    However, refereeing is a thankless job that requires continual revalidation, courses and usually a minimum committment to referee at x number of tournaments a year. Most people don't have the ability to make that kind of time sacrifice as well as regularly practicing Judo whilst juggling a job and family. So refereeing tends to be done by the retired, the inactive or those who're on the periphery of a club - WAGS, parents etc...
    This is true for local/state/regional level refs, for the most part, but not those who want to break into the national level and beyond. In terms of being retired from serious (elite level) competition, yes.

    At lower levels, a huge amount of skill and experience is not needed. I have teenagers who have been doing Judo from 10-5 years who do pretty well reffing kids matches, and get better each time they do it.

    At higher levels, huge amounts of time and study and travelling are called for if one wants to move up the ladder. Content to stay at national level is not so bad once you get there.

    Ben
  10. judoka_uk is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/02/2011 8:43am

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    Quote Originally Posted by BKR View Post
    This is true for local/state/regional level refs, for the most part, but not those who want to break into the national level and beyond. In terms of being retired from serious (elite level) competition, yes.

    At lower levels, a huge amount of skill and experience is not needed. I have teenagers who have been doing Judo from 10-5 years who do pretty well reffing kids matches, and get better each time they do it.

    At higher levels, huge amounts of time and study and travelling are called for if one wants to move up the ladder. Content to stay at national level is not so bad once you get there.

    Ben
    No disagreement, I thought we were talking about low level refereeing here because thats what the OP, myself and 99% of people on here will have to compete under when they do compete.

    National and international level comps are a whole other kettle of fish, there's a much higher level of professionalism and competence then you get at your local 2 bit interclub comp or grading.
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