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  1. DubhGhaill is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/28/2010 4:24pm


     Style: MMA/JKD

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    BTW, this is my main source for Wolfe's claims on the origins of Defendo...

    http://www.whwolfe.com/book/

    This and his CORE Combat DVD are pretty much all the info I have on the man.
  2. DubhGhaill is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/28/2010 4:28pm


     Style: MMA/JKD

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by DdlR View Post
    The grand winner in the "bizarre names for combatives training" sweepstakes must be Dr. Perrigard's "Arwrology". Come to think of it, he was Canadian, too.
    I haven't got that book yet, but I've heard good things about it.
  3. Jim_Jude is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/31/2010 6:21am

    Join us... or die
     Style: StrikeyGrappling & WW2-fu

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Watched the first hour of the Defendo C.O.R.E. dvd
    Surprising decent standing clinch material/drills & whatnot, take-downs aren't bad at all from a "Combatives" pov
    I like how he talks about Muay Thai & other martial "sports" & using them for training & then working drills to "adjust sport mindset to street mindset" easily.

    but he says "kit" so often that it's annoying me...

    I'll watch the second half tommorow
    Last edited by Jim_Jude; 12/31/2010 6:27am at .
    "Judo is a study of techniques with which you may kill if you wish to kill, injure if you wish to injure, subdue if you wish to subdue, and, when attacked, defend yourself" - Jigoro Kano (1889)
    ***Was this quote "taken out of context"?***

    "The judoist has no time to allow himself a margin for error, especially in a situation upon which his or another person's very life depends...."
    ~ The Secret of Judo (Jiichi Watanabe & Lindy Avakian), p.19

    "Hope is not a method... nor is enthusiasm."
    ~ Brigadier General Gordon Toney
  4. Cdnronin is offline

    Ghost of Kawaishi

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    Posted On:
    1/05/2011 11:36am


     Style: judo, parenting

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by atomicpoet View Post
    From a historical perspective, Underwood's Defendo system is significant. It was the first noteworthy civilian martial art created by a Canadian. It's too bad Underwood's reputation is sinking into obscurity.
    The first noteworthy Canadian martial art would probably be William Jacomb's Practical self defense, published in 1918, roughly 24 years before Underwood. It was later re-published as Atomic jiu jitsu, and was re-discovered by none other than matt Furey, whoalso re-published it.

    One of the problems with Underwood's timeline, is he is given credit for creating an art during the WWI time period, yet doesn't publish anything about it until 1942. I beleive the dates are chosen to make it seem Underwood was around prior to Fairbairn, and the publication of Defendu in 1926. Of course this doesn't take into account the Shanghai police manual, printed in 1915.

    I have most of Underwood's books, as well as the book published by his daughter. The history presented there does not quite match the history given elsewhere.
  5. atomicpoet is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/05/2011 9:20pm


     Style: Western Boxing, Tai Chi

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cdnronin View Post
    The first noteworthy Canadian martial art would probably be William Jacomb's Practical self defense, published in 1918, roughly 24 years before Underwood. It was later re-published as Atomic jiu jitsu, and was re-discovered by none other than matt Furey, whoalso re-published it.

    One of the problems with Underwood's timeline, is he is given credit for creating an art during the WWI time period, yet doesn't publish anything about it until 1942. I beleive the dates are chosen to make it seem Underwood was around prior to Fairbairn, and the publication of Defendu in 1926. Of course this doesn't take into account the Shanghai police manual, printed in 1915.

    I have most of Underwood's books, as well as the book published by his daughter. The history presented there does not quite match the history given elsewhere.
    "Noteworthy" being the qualitative term. Compared to Underwood, Jacomb is pretty obscure. When I hit Google, I'm hard-pressed to find information on him.

    By contrast, Underwood had a lot of media coverage while he was alive, and his system has lots of documentation. When this documentation was created is a separate matter entirely.

    As far as him futzing with history is concerned, I believe it. There's some hearsay that he visited Camp X during World War II. If this is true, he probably was aware of Fairbairn and Defendu -- and may have called his system Defendo to capitalize on it.

    Not saying this was the case (it probably isn't), but it's plausible.

    I'm still curious, though: how do we untangle the confusing history of all the Defendos/Combatos and their history with each other?
  6. DdlR is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/05/2011 9:38pm

    supporting member
     Style: Bartitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Cdnronin View Post
    One of the problems with Underwood's timeline, is he is given credit for creating an art during the WWI time period, yet doesn't publish anything about it until 1942. I beleive the dates are chosen to make it seem Underwood was around prior to Fairbairn, and the publication of Defendu in 1926. Of course this doesn't take into account the Shanghai police manual, printed in 1915.
    Assuming that Underwood really did "apprentice" with Yukio Tani and Taro Miyake backstage in London music halls as a kid, it's plausible that he'd started developing his own jujitsu-based system during WW1. Is there much record of what he was doing combatives-wise between the wars?
  7. Cdnronin is offline

    Ghost of Kawaishi

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    Posted On:
    1/06/2011 7:56am


     Style: judo, parenting

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by DdlR View Post
    Assuming that Underwood really did "apprentice" with Yukio Tani and Taro Miyake backstage in London music halls as a kid, it's plausible that he'd started developing his own jujitsu-based system during WW1. Is there much record of what he was doing combatives-wise between the wars?
    I will put the exact passage up later today, but the gist of what is written in "Defendo" Police system of Self-Defense is Underwood learned a little backstage from Tani and Miyake, used some of it in WWI, and basically forgot about it until WWII.
  8. Cdnronin is offline

    Ghost of Kawaishi

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    Posted On:
    1/06/2011 8:47am


     Style: judo, parenting

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    [QUOTE=atomicpoet;2493262As far as him futzing with history is concerned, I believe it. There's some hearsay that he visited Camp X during World War II. If this is true, he probably was aware of Fairbairn and Defendu -- and may have called his system Defend[I]o[/I] to capitalize on it.

    Not saying this was the case (it probably isn't), but it's plausible.

    QUOTE]


    The term Defendo was apparently coined by Pat Underwood, Underwood's daughter.
  9. Cdnronin is offline

    Ghost of Kawaishi

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    Posted On:
    1/06/2011 9:26am


     Style: judo, parenting

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by DdlR View Post
    Assuming that Underwood really did "apprentice" with Yukio Tani and Taro Miyake backstage in London music halls as a kid, it's plausible that he'd started developing his own jujitsu-based system during WW1. Is there much record of what he was doing combatives-wise between the wars?
    From "Defendo" Police System of Self-Defense 1950 pages 5-6

    " As a boy in England at the age of 13, Bill earned pocket money after school by selling programmes at the Vaudeville theatre. In those days before the motion-picture era, Vaudeville was the popular theatre attraction. Periodically, japanese Jiu-jitsu experts would be on the bill. Of these, the world's greatest were Tara Maki and Youka Tania. Bill's interest was centered on these little brown men who would nightly take big men and throw them around at random. Bill became an apt pupil of the Jap jiu jitsu stars, backstage between acts. a couple of years later,he migrated to Canada, and in 1914 went overseas with the Royal Montreal Regiment. He was able to use his knowledge of jiu jitsu to extricate himself from some rough situations during the war. He got away from the Germans at Ypres, following the first gas attack in April 1915. Later he joined the Royal Flying Corps and finsihed his service in the First World War as a Pilot.

    After World War 1 had ended, Bill returned to Canada, married, brought up a family and became well known in advertising circles before the second World war broke out. He offered his services as a former Pilot, but was informed that this was a "young man's war" and there was no place for him. He volunteered for the Army, but was again informed that he was too old. This, he refused to believe. In patriotic fervour, he joined the Queen's Own Rifles "Reserve Company", believing that he could find a way to help train the young recruits.

    At a weekend in Long Branch, west of Toronto, Bill agreed to put on a demonstration of "Jiu Jitsu". There was a lot of talk about "Commando Training", "Unarmed Combat",a new twist called "Judo", that Bill had never heard of until that time. However, he put on a demonstration, and he himself was amazed at the knowlege he had retained over the years. His added weight, whicj was then in the vicinty of 190 pounds, helped to send three stalwart husky, young wrestlers to the hospital. From that moment on, Bill felt he had something to offer, and he devised a system he called "Combato", to combat "Judo". This he used in his training of thousands of Canadian boys in his own time, voluntarily. He visited and trained men in the Army, Navy and Air force camps in Eastern Canada, in his own time,at his own expense."
  10. DdlR is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/06/2011 12:06pm

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     Style: Bartitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    The misspelling of Miyake's and Tani's names might be counted as a point towards plausibility; it reads as if, 30+years later, he couldn't recall how their names were actually spelled. OTOH the pre-WW1 British press offered all sorts of variations on Miyake's name.

    A colleague who has been researching the life of Gintaro, a little-known Japanese juggler, has come across references to Gintaro teaching basic jujitsu backstage in the British music halls for extra $$$. This would probably have been pre-WW1 and through into the 1920s.
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