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  1. Lebell is offline
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    Just waiting for the paperboy.

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    Posted On:
    12/24/2010 7:42am

    supporting member
     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by atomicpoet View Post
    I don't, but there's a book at my brother-in-law's house that makes that statement. After I read about it, I decided to research Defendo (Defendu?). It was plausible to me, but I don't necessarily think this is true.

    Regardless, I'll delete that from my OP since I'm not trying to talk about Defendo's "d34dl1n355", but the difference between all the Defendos.

    EDIT: Damn it, I can't edit. If you're reading the OP please forget it was even mentioned.
    Mate, always beware when you try to post seriously of how you formulate things.
    Ask yourself: do i KNOW this or did i hear this or read it?
    Even reading stuff or 'seeing it with your own eyes' doesnt have to mean you draw the right conclusion.
  2. atomicpoet is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/24/2010 2:00pm


     Style: Western Boxing, Tai Chi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Lebell View Post
    Mate, always beware when you try to post seriously of how you formulate things.
    Ask yourself: do i KNOW this or did i hear this or read it?
    Even reading stuff or 'seeing it with your own eyes' doesnt have to mean you draw the right conclusion.
    It's a red herring. What more interesting to me is the history behind all these systems. Even though they're disparate, they're also quite connected.
  3. atomicpoet is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/24/2010 2:05pm


     Style: Western Boxing, Tai Chi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Cdnronin View Post
    Yes. I spent several years in discussion with Fairbairn's official historian, Peter Robins(RIP), author of A Warrior and a gentleman. There's alot of old history, search on this site for Wolfe, several interesting threads will come up.
    It looks like JKDChick and ICY both have experience with Wolfe. JKDChick trained in his studio and vouches for the quality. ICY has met several MMA fighters who swear he's the real deal. Many accounts claim Wolfe has a decent system.

    Still, it makes me wonder why he's so focused on lineage.

    YouTube - what's wolfe's lineage?
  4. Cdnronin is offline

    Ghost of Kawaishi

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    Posted On:
    12/24/2010 2:59pm


     Style: judo, parenting

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I've never questioned if Wolfe's system is good, or if the training is hard. But it is based on Hapkido/boxing and Muay Thai for the clinch, not WWII Combatives. Wolfe claims to have been taught Fairbairn's system(which was not Defendu by the time anyone in North America or Europe was taught it) by a mysterious Harold Stairn. One grainy picture of him is all that exists. No military records or anything, yet he was supposeldy an instructor at Camp X. Wolfe was so impressed by the techniques that he learned from this man, that he went out and became an 8th Dan in Hapkido, before teaching the ultimate system he had been taught years before. Unfortunately what he teaches looks nothing like what Fairbairn taught. Coincidence?
  5. neoex is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/25/2010 5:21am


     Style: BJJ, Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    There is also Scandinavian Defendo http://defendoalliance.com/index.php?page=home-en. If I don't remember it all wrong it begun as an offset of Wolfes Defendo, but parted because of some differences in opinion. Don't know any details, but there was some poo-slinging afterwards, mostly about money and the contents of the system.

    I did it for few years before it separated officially, but was (from what I was told) already different than Wolfes. It focused largely on restricting opponents and was (and is now even more) geared for LEOs and other such. At the moment there's several important finnish martial artists behind the system.

    As to is it any good or peculiars of the lineages I don't know, but I still would classify it as separate from the others.

    edit: Here's their Facebook group: http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=5669606357
    Last edited by neoex; 12/25/2010 5:26am at .
  6. DubhGhaill is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/25/2010 7:52pm


     Style: MMA/JKD

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I recently purchased Wolfe's CORE Combat DVD. It's pretty good stuff.

    I can definitely see why people say why Wolfe's system is not related to WWII Combatives, but I can also see how he claims to have stayed true to the basic principles.

    Wolfe's system places a heavier emphasis on boxing hand work, and a decreased emphasis on open hand / edge of hand. Note that this is only a difference in emphasis, not in content. Some of the wrist locks he shows in the DVD are different then the arm locks taught in WWII Combatives, though.

    Bottom line. His stuff will work and I have no reason to doubt that he learned the basics in the Cabadian Army. Given his age, it's no stretch to believe his instructors might have been WWII vets also. Maybe he overplays the lineage to Fairbairn a bit, but how many Combatives guys can actually claim to have qualified as a Hand-to-Hand instructor in the military (or police) anyway?
    Last edited by DubhGhaill; 12/25/2010 7:59pm at . Reason: Crappy grammar
  7. yottabit is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/26/2010 6:05am


     Style: Judo, BJJ (noob)

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Although I repeating what alot of people said here, Wolfes Defendo system is has it's roots in the Canadian army whichmainly stem from Fairbairn and Underwoods system, and Judo, then later Wolfe adapted to the police, SWAT, etc. which made more restraint orientated. If you want a direct linage from Fairbairn system, I suggest reading this site http://www.closecombatinstructors.comwhich was created by Applegate which is a list of valid of CQC instructors that is related to SAS or 'Defendu' combative. I do Wolfe's defendo, I believe the training is alive, great (it always funny to try to wrestle someone to the ground and tie your partner up with a rope or cuffs) and relevant to a job that requires to restrain people (like nursing lol) despite the seldom bullshido factor in wolfe's linage
  8. atomicpoet is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/27/2010 8:03pm


     Style: Western Boxing, Tai Chi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I don't think W.H. Wolfe's system has ever been on trial. However, there's a lot of lingering questions I feel need to be answered:


    1. Did any World War II soldiers ever practice Defendu, or was it Fairbairn's CQC system? Certain authorities indicate there is a difference.
    2. Did the Canadian military ever call Fairbairn's CQC system "Defendo", and call it that in any official documentation?
    3. When did practitioners start calling Fairbairn's system "Defendo" instead of "Defendu"?
    4. Since Wolfe claims to be an authority on Fairbairn's system, why didn't he call it "Modern Defendu" in order to keep from obscuring Underwood's system?
    5. Despite massive media coverage of Bill Underwood's work (including an Academy Award nomination for the short film "Don't Mess with Bill") and his experience in Canada's military, why was nobody in the Canadian military aware of Underwood's Defendo system?

    So much about this doesn't add up. In many ways, I feel like Underwood should get more credit. By all accounts, his system was the one originally called "Defendo".

    From a historical perspective, Underwood's Defendo system is significant. It was the first noteworthy civilian martial art created by a Canadian. It's too bad Underwood's reputation is sinking into obscurity.
  9. DubhGhaill is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/28/2010 4:04pm


     Style: MMA/JKD

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I don't think W.H. Wolfe's system has ever been on trial. However, there's a lot of lingering questions I feel need to be answered:
    Did any World War II soldiers ever practice Defendu, or was it Fairbairn's CQC system? Certain authorities indicate there is a difference.
    Many people seem to use "Defendu" to specify Fairbairn's police system, as opposed to Fairbairn's military system. There were differences between the police and military systems, but I think asking if WWII troops ever used Defendu is really just a semantic argument.

    Did the Canadian military ever call Fairbairn's CQC system "Defendo", and call it that in any official documentation?
    Never been in the Canadian military myself. From what Wolfe's written it seems that "Defendo" was a common nickname for unarmed combat in the Canadian Army when he was in (that's military unarmed combat generally, not just Fairbairn's system specifically).

    Wolfe has written that at one point he began using "Defendo" officially while teaching in the Army because "Unarmed Combat" was too politically incorrect at the time. i.e. Unarmed Combat was taken off the official curriculum, but "martial arts" and "Defendo" were allowed on a semi-official basis.

    When did practitioners start calling Fairbairn's system "Defendo" instead of "Defendu"?
    No idea. To the best of my knowledge, though, Wolfe is the only one who does this.

    Since Wolfe claims to be an authority on Fairbairn's system, why didn't he call it "Modern Defendu" in order to keep from obscuring Underwood's system?
    From memory, his explanation just boils down to "Defendo" being the more common name in Canadian military circles.

    Personally, I think Defendu and Defendo both sound equally stupid. If I was him, I'd change it to some variation of "Combatives" or "Close Combat".

    Despite massive media coverage of Bill Underwood's work (including an Academy Award nomination for the short film "Don't Mess with Bill") and his experience in Canada's military, why was nobody in the Canadian military aware of Underwood's Defendo system?

    So much about this doesn't add up. In many ways, I feel like Underwood should get more credit. By all accounts, his system was the one originally called "Defendo".

    From a historical perspective, Underwood's Defendo system is significant. It was the first noteworthy civilian martial art created by a Canadian. It's too bad Underwood's reputation is sinking into obscurity.
    I'm not really familiar with Underwood's system at all. I know that it was being taught at the same time as Fairbairn's and that it may have placed a greater emphasis on joint locks, but I haven't taken the trouble to research it specifically.

    At a guess, I'd bet the Unarmed Combat that Wolfe learned in the Army was inflenced by both Fairbairn and Underwood, even though he never mentions Underwood in any of his promotional materials (that I've seen.) He does mention Dermott O'Neil a couple of times.

    Having looked at Fairbairn's and Wolfe's material now, I'd be interested in getting some of Underwood's stuff as well for comparison.
  10. DdlR is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/28/2010 4:18pm

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     Style: Bartitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    The grand winner in the "bizarre names for combatives training" sweepstakes must be Dr. Perrigard's "Arwrology". Come to think of it, he was Canadian, too.
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