Irish stick fighting documentary

**lklawson** · Posted On: 1/03/2011 11:35am

Originally Posted by JKD25

The bata list is a joke as are most of the people doing "reconstructions".

Thanks. I will give your opinion all the consideration that you have duly earned with your knowledgeable participation in both this thread and in the bata list.

From what I've seen on it you spend most of your time slagging Hurley when he's done more than anyone.

He doesn't really come up that often; only once in the last year.

Here's one post from Hurley's list where Glen Doyle confirms that McGrath is a sham and ripped him off as well:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/shillelagh/message/2745

And you couldn't have posted this the FIRST time I asked?

Ya know I only posted here because I found this thread in a google search and, as it is supposed to be about sham martial artists and con men, thought I'd warn some people about McGrath...

Then why did that only get one sentence of your first post, and the LAST sentence at that?

instead I find the same people with a jealous chip on their shoulder badmouthing Hurley as always do on the bata list -

He doesn't come up that often. Are you sure you looked at the bata list? FWIW, I believe that I am pretty much the only bata list member posting here and I didn't mention Mr. Hurley at all much less "bad mouth" him.

and yet it's Hurley's work that's in the documentary that you're all praising and going on about!

I neither praised nor panned the documentary. I made no comment upon it whatsoever.

Maybe YOU lawson, are the one who needs to keep an open mind. Funny, for all the badmouthing about Hurley, you boys seem awfully obsessed with him and his works.

Dude, you brought up his name. No one "bad mouthed" him. No one even MENTIONED him before you arrived on the scene. Are you sure that "shoulder chip" you were referring to wasn't glimpsed in a reflection from your monitor?

In any case, this is just too suspect for my tastes. Please go ahead and have the last word. Here, use this space: __________________________________________

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

**JKD25** · Posted On: 1/04/2011 4:10am

Originally Posted by DdlR

The anthology "Irish Gangs and Stick Fighting in the Works of William Carleton" is a compilation of some of Carleton's stories and novellas highlighting shillelagh culture, with annotations and an introduction by John Hurley. It received a positive review from Tom Green: http://ejmas.com/jmanly/articles/200...green_0502.htm . That review was published via the EJMAS "Journal of Manly Arts", which was edited by Tony Wolf; if Wolf himself has reviewed John Hurley's books, that's news to me. Can you link us to the review(s)?

Hurley's "Shillelagh the Irish Fighting Stick" has a good deal to recommend it, and also a good deal not to. The proposition that shillelagh fighting was taught in the hedge schools IMO confuses Carleton's satire with documentary fact.

Mr. Tony Wolf,
Had said "and his associates" I believe??? But yes, I think you praised the book at one point on the bata list. Certainly if you didn't initially like it, you would have blocked it from getting on ejmas in the first place, as it's your show. The idea that Hurley "confuses Carleton's satire with documentary fact" is coming I think from someone with a bit of a biased chip on his shoulder, rather than any expertise on Carleton, Irish literature or Irish stick-fighting. For example, they refer to Carleton in the documentary - funny that. Interesting how the very point you're critiquing ended up in the documentary that you're simultaneously praising and hypocritcal on your end: if Hurley says so, it is wrong, if someone else says so it is correct. Or has the documentary too succumbed to the say alleged error has Hurley? If so why no mention of it? Your personal dislike of the person is masquerading as unbiased commentary on his work. And this goes on through most everyone associated with the bata list, which is why it is such a joke.
To repeat, the documentary was great, but it is also a rip off of someone else's work that's all, and McGrath has a long history of doing that in Ireland. Thought this site was about exposing such things, and never thought doing so would get such a rise out of people.

**wikidbounce** · Posted On: 1/04/2011 4:32am

Originally Posted by It is Fake

Good lord did someone really type bo staff?

Yes Guilty, that was me. I first typed "long stick" and didn't know what the easiest recognizable term would be for most people. I call my escrima stick a stick and I wouldn't know the difference between a quarter-staff and a Jo etc..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dyHjVqr6_04

This was the stick I meant, it seems longer than the Shillelagh I'd seen used before. The video is from irishstickfighter.com and the Modern Shillelagh Project. It goes through basic fundamentals of their offence including grips, stances and guards. They focus on the "shiner grip" and "MSP stance". It includes sparring to demonstrate the concepts.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W_MpMZjXbYY

This is their Double Stick work. They mention a champion stickfighter, but I don't know much about their competions.

**Prince Vlad** · Posted On: 1/04/2011 5:56am

Here's the link to the TG4 'Na Chead Fight Clubs' documentary
http://www.tg4.tv/main.aspx?level=an...t=404945511425
(you can't view it on the Chrome browser though so use Firefox or Explorer.)

Can't say I've ever heard of Irish stick fighting being anything other than lads beating the shite out of each other with shillelagh's or hurley's (nails being an option for the traveling community). Any of you guys ever hear about the 'Clan'? They were basically a bunch of crusties who used to make their own weapons, spoke Irish and did reenactments in the Dublin Mountains in the 90's. If anyone from that group sees this post it would interesting to hear from them if they practiced any type of authentic fighting system or was it just an excuse to run around wearing kilts without no jocks.

**DdlR** · Posted On: 1/04/2011 7:24am

Hi John,

as editor of the "Journal of Manly Arts" my role was to approve, reject or amend content; I would certainly not "block" a review on an interesting martial arts topic from an experienced academic reviewer like Tom Green. I've never seen your "Irish Gangs and Stickfighting" book, but I have no reason not to trust Tom's review of it.

Regarding your "Shillelagh" book, I don't recall having offered a glowing review of it on the Bata list, nor anywhere else; again, please feel free to link us to the review if you find it. As I said, it has much to recommend it and much not to, and I stand by my opinion about the hedge school proposition, which I did mention earlier in this thread:

No BS MMA and Martial Arts - View Single Post - Irish stick fighting documentary
No BS MMA and Martial Arts - View Single Post - Irish stick fighting documentary

**lklawson** · Posted On: 1/04/2011 7:59am

Originally Posted by wikidbounce

Yes Guilty, that was me. I first typed "long stick" and didn't know what the easiest recognizable term would be for most people. I call my escrima stick a stick and I wouldn't know the difference between a quarter-staff and a Jo etc.

I find myself faced with this dilemma from time to time. It's actually a pretty common problem because stickfighting is now, and always has been, a popular subject. But there are countless different names for exactly the same stick from different cultures and it is only complicated by the further fact that, often, the same culture can refer to many different sticks with the same name or have many different names for the same stick! For instance, in Western systems "Quarterstaff" is a far more generic term than one would at first assume with the end result being that it's typically a fighting staff at least as tall as the person using it.

It could be taller depending on the system.

It could be a custom height to the user depending on the system.

It could be made of several different woods.

It could have iron caps or wire-work on one or both ends.

Personally, I have found that when I want my description to be best understood by the "lowest common denominator" I should use simple description instead of culture specific names. For instance, the MSP stick could probably be easily described as something like "a 4 foot staff." You can throw in a dia. if you want. Or Hutton's "Great Stick" could be described (as he does) as simple a 5 foot rattan staff.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

**wikidbounce** · Posted On: 1/04/2011 8:02pm

MSP appears to be the system that focusses on techniques that work in sparring, would that be true of most Irish systems?

I'd be interested in learning a stick style with the wide two-hand grip like the Doyle style. This grip, in sparing I've seen used for blocking at long-range, behind the opponents legs to assist with a double leg takedown or for chokes/submissions during ground fighting. Is it a practical to strike with the wide two-handed grip?

In other systems I'd seen this grip in a thrust to the solar plexus or horizontaly accross the body as a shove, I hadn't seen these examples in sparring though.

Unfortunately I don't know of any Irish stick styles in my area, the only WMA group I know of would be the local SCA. There is a Krav place which has Hoch Hockheim methods in their support styles. There's some Double handed grips in his stick style so that's probably my only option if I want to train those methods. I got to concentrate on the BJJ fundamentals for at least another year before looking at crosstraining though.

**lklawson** · Posted On: 1/05/2011 10:17am

Originally Posted by wikidbounce

MSP appears to be the system that focusses on techniques that work in sparring, would that be true of most Irish systems?

Most but not all. Of course, different groups have different emphasis on sparring. Some focus more heavily than others.

I'd be interested in learning a stick style with the wide two-hand grip like the Doyle style. This grip, in sparing I've seen used for blocking at long-range, behind the opponents legs to assist with a double leg takedown or for chokes/submissions during ground fighting. Is it a practical to strike with the wide two-handed grip?

"Practical" is a term that is very relative to the interests and desires of the practitioner. Personally, I don't like the two-handed wide-separated grip as a "standard, go-to" but I do find that it has its place. I have seen it as a component (or primary point) in several different historic systems, again evidencing that the method has value.

My personal experience is that one-handed strikes launched from this position, lacking a way to "wind-up" unless you moulinet, tend to have less force behind them and so require more specific targeting. As you note it is an ideal starting point for "bayonet" style thrusts.

In other systems I'd seen this grip in a thrust to the solar plexus or horizontaly accross the body as a shove, I hadn't seen these examples in sparring though.

Full force bayonet style thrusts are hard to do safely in sparring. Further, because of range, telegraphing, and other details, tend to be harder to "pull off" against someone "clued in" to the style (i.e., your sparring partners).

Unfortunately I don't know of any Irish stick styles in my area, the only WMA group I know of would be the local SCA.

I'm not sure if Mr. Doyle has a "self study" course but I do know he gives seminars regularly and has a DVD (in the finished stages, IMS).

Alternately, the Fairbairn stick method has some strong similarities (though a shorter stick), is well documented (you can download his original source material), and is easy to pick up.

There is a Krav place which has Hoch Hockheim methods in their support styles. There's some Double handed grips in his stick style so that's probably my only option if I want to train those methods.

I don't have any direct experience with Mr. Hockheim's stick method, though I know for a fact that his knife material good so I assume his stick material is also decent. I wonder if he imported some of his stick material from Fairbairn?

I got to concentrate on the BJJ fundamentals for at least another year before looking at crosstraining though.

You might be happier, then, with the Dogbrothers "Stickgrappling" material or with Gene LeBell's "Grappling Stick" material. Both would tend to fit better with your BJJ base.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

**lklawson** · Posted On: 1/05/2011 10:28am

Here's a preview of some of Gene LeBell's material (old BB Mag. article):

http://www.blackbeltmag.com/archives/652

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

**wikidbounce** · Posted On: 1/09/2011 11:02pm

I've been wanting to get Gene's Club grappling book and DVD set for a while now. It's out of my budget even before postage from the US.

I've been thinking about getting the book by itself but I'd really like to check out the DVDs. Anyone seen them?

My BJJ instructor studies Kali as well so shouldn't be too hard to get some stick grappling practice. Got to drill the fundamentals first.

The Irish stick stuff is going to be difficult to come accross, a good DVD would be great.