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  1. lklawson is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/03/2011 9:37am


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    Quote Originally Posted by JKD25 View Post
    N.B. most of the major points and concepts in this video (including the above) were lifted from a book called "Shillelagh: The Irish Fighting Stick" by Joh W. Hurley, and published years ago. It's the definitive history on faction fighting and Irish stick-fighting. I'm not surprised that John McGrath of Waterford martial arts ripped this book off, he has the rep of being a major con man in Ireland.
    Interesting material for a first post.

    Though I have no personal opinion on whether or not Mr. Hurley's book is considered the "definitive" source I can say that Mr. Hurley is himself something of a contentious figure in the community of researchers on Irish Martial Arts, having alienated himself from at least 3 of the 5 or 6 major segments, and there are some who have concluded that his material is biased and unwarrantedly "Irish nationalistic" while ignoring certain points of contradictory historic material. One example is that Mr. Hurely draws significantly upon the works of Carleton while rejecting the fact that Carleton was something of a satirist. In effect, every word that Carleton writes on the topic of stick use or faction fighting in general is considered to be unassailable truth. It may be or it may not be.

    In any case Mr. Hurley is certainly passionate about Irish martial arts.

    As to the subject of Mr. McGrath having a reputation as a "con man," I am unfamiliar with such. Would you mind posting some third party references please?

    Peace favor your sword,
    Kirk
  2. JKD25 is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/03/2011 11:33am

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    Quote Originally Posted by lklawson View Post
    Interesting material for a first post.

    Though I have no personal opinion on whether or not Mr. Hurley's book is considered the "definitive" source
    ======
    So you've not read his books? Funny how you have such an opinion then...
    ======
    I can say that Mr. Hurley is himself something of a contentious figure in the community of researchers on Irish Martial Arts, having alienated himself from at least 3 of the 5 or 6 major segments,
    ======
    Please provide 3rd party statements for proof of this...I'd love to know what 6 "major segments" even exist! I'm on his e-list and have found him to be very reasonable and astute - though he does not suffer fools.
    ======
    and there are some who have concluded that his material is biased and unwarrantedly "Irish nationalistic" while ignoring certain points of contradictory historic material.
    ======
    Sounds like they simply have the typical Anglo-centric anti-Irish bias to me...
    ======
    One example is that Mr. Hurely draws significantly upon the works of Carleton while rejecting the fact that Carleton was something of a satirist. In effect, every word that Carleton writes on the topic of stick use or faction fighting in general is considered to be unassailable truth. It may be or it may not be.
    ======
    Nothing of the sort. He explores this very fact throughout the introduction of his book "Irish Gangs And Stick-Fighting", and the endnotes of the book raise this point as well. As I recall the book got rave reviews by Tony Wolf and some of his associates. As for his book "Shillelagh"...it can hardly be said to "draw significantly on the works of Carleton"...if you'd read it you'd know that. There is one chapter which descrbes the stick-fight from one of his stories, that's it...
    ======
    In any case Mr. Hurley is certainly passionate about Irish martial arts.

    As to the subject of Mr. McGrath having a reputation as a "con man," I am unfamiliar with such. Would you mind posting some third party references please?

    Peace favor your sword,
    Kirk
    ======
    Sure you can contact Mr. Glen Doyle for confirmation of that - I do assume he's one of your 6 major groups or do you just dismiss him out of hand as well?
  3. CrackFox is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/03/2011 11:43am

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    Sounds like they simply have the typical Anglo-centric anti-Irish bias to me...
    It does in its arse, you messer.
  4. lklawson is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/03/2011 11:45am


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    Quote Originally Posted by JKD25 View Post
    So you've not read his books? Funny how you have such an opinion then...
    Funny how you assume this. Actually, I DO own his material and I have pointed interested parties to his Lulu store in the past. What I said was, specifically, that I have no opinion on whether or not his book can/should be considered the "definitive" source.

    Please provide 3rd party statements for proof of this...I'd love to know what 6 "major segments" even exist! I'm on his e-list and have found him to be very reasonable and astute - though he does not suffer fools.
    Four of the groups post here: http://sports.groups.yahoo.com/group/bata/

    As for "suffering fools" that tends to be a rather charged (some say "loaded") term.

    Sounds like they simply have the typical Anglo-centric anti-Irish bias to me...
    Maybe. Or maybe you might also look around a bit and see what others are saying. Keep an open mind.

    One example is that Mr. Hurely draws significantly upon the works of Carleton while rejecting the fact that Carleton was something of a satirist. In effect, every word that Carleton writes on the topic of stick use or faction fighting in general is considered to be unassailable truth. It may be or it may not be.
    ======
    Nothing of the sort.
    If you say so friend. I have no interest in a protracted internet argument. You are free to hold your opinion.

    Sure you can contact Mr. Glen Doyle for confirmation of that
    Next time I'm conversing with him I'll see if the subject comes up.

    - I do assume he's one of your 6 major groups or do you just dismiss him out of hand as well?
    Stop jumping to conclusions. It may be good exercise but it doesn't really get you where you need to go.

    Peace favor your sword,
    Kirk
  5. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/03/2011 12:02pm

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    Good lord did someone really type bo staff? Interesting thread. Is there this many problems concerning modernizing a historical art?
  6. JKD25 is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/03/2011 12:17pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by lklawson View Post
    Funny how you assume this. Actually, I DO own his material and I have pointed interested parties to his Lulu store in the past. What I said was, specifically, that I have no opinion on whether or not his book can/should be considered the "definitive" source.

    Four of the groups post here: http://sports.groups.yahoo.com/group/bata/

    As for "suffering fools" that tends to be a rather charged (some say "loaded") term.

    Maybe. Or maybe you might also look around a bit and see what others are saying. Keep an open mind.

    If you say so friend. I have no interest in a protracted internet argument. You are free to hold your opinion.

    Next time I'm conversing with him I'll see if the subject comes up.

    Stop jumping to conclusions. It may be good exercise but it doesn't really get you where you need to go.

    Peace favor your sword,
    Kirk

    The bata list is a joke as are most of the people doing "reconstructions". From what I've seen on it you spend most of your time slagging Hurley when he's done more than anyone.
    Here's one post from Hurley's list where Glen Doyle confirms that McGrath is a sham and ripped him off as well:
    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/shillelagh/message/2745
    Ya know I only posted here because I found this thread in a google search and, as it is supposed to be about sham martial artists and con men, thought I'd warn some people about McGrath...instead I find the same people with a jealous chip on their shoulder badmouthing Hurley as always do on the bata list - and yet it's Hurley's work that's in the documentary that you're all praising and going on about! Maybe YOU lawson, are the one who needs to keep an open mind. Funny, for all the badmouthing about Hurley, you boys seem awfully obsessed with him and his works.
  7. lklawson is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/03/2011 12:21pm


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    Quote Originally Posted by It is Fake View Post
    Interesting thread. Is there this many problems concerning modernizing a historical art?
    Yes. Lots of egos. Kinda like anything else. :)

    Peace favor your sword,
    Kirk
  8. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/03/2011 12:24pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by JKD25 View Post
    Ya know I only posted here because I found this thread in a google search and, as it is supposed to be about sham martial artists and con men, thought I'd warn some people about McGrath...instead I find the same people with a jealous chip on their shoulder badmouthing Hurley as always do on the bata list - and yet it's Hurley's work that's in the documentary that you're all praising and going on about! Maybe YOU lawson, are the one who needs to keep an open mind. Funny, for all the badmouthing about Hurley, you boys seem awfully obsessed with him and his works.
    You came here to stir up drama. Otherwise, you wouldn't use specifically charged words in your first post.

    There is a specific forum called Martial Arts Bullshido other wise referred to as MABS. That's where the frauds, McDOJOs and Questionable martial artists are explored. If you want to get into name calling and anger we have another sub-forum called Your Martial Art Sucks, aka YMAS, where you can continue to be angry and cheerlead whoever floats your boat.

    Here is for discussion of various WMA and it is usually very civil. If you feel he has a chip please provide references, links, and other sources to further the conversation. Right now, you sound very angry.
  9. DdlR is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/03/2011 12:28pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by It is Fake View Post
    Good lord did someone really type bo staff? Interesting thread. Is there this many problems concerning modernizing a historical art?
    In some much more than others, frankly.
  10. DdlR is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/03/2011 12:34pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by JKD25 View Post
    As I recall the book got rave reviews by Tony Wolf and some of his associates.
    The anthology "Irish Gangs and Stick Fighting in the Works of William Carleton" is a compilation of some of Carleton's stories and novellas highlighting shillelagh culture, with annotations and an introduction by John Hurley. It received a positive review from Tom Green: http://ejmas.com/jmanly/articles/200...green_0502.htm . That review was published via the EJMAS "Journal of Manly Arts", which was edited by Tony Wolf; if Wolf himself has reviewed John Hurley's books, that's news to me. Can you link us to the review(s)?

    Hurley's "Shillelagh the Irish Fighting Stick" has a good deal to recommend it, and also a good deal not to. The proposition that shillelagh fighting was taught in the hedge schools IMO confuses Carleton's satire with documentary fact.
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