Chen Pan Ling Tai Chi anyone?

**Eddie Hardon** · Posted On: 12/21/2010 6:08am

Originally Posted by DieselClause

Sheesh, that guy has trained in a few different things:

Well, when he moved to Paree, he was using an Aikido dojo so...and France is noted for Savate, Canne etc.

I seem to remember that when he was still in London, he mentioned sparring with MT chaps - drawing upon his amateur training at St Pancras BC - (the item above hsould have said "unfortunate alliance with The Kronk).

I don't try to lead people wrongly.

Hook. Well, I can't see the video as it's blocked. I would only say that I was taught a Hook dropped at the Wrist but now have been taught to keep it in-line wth the Forearm/Elbow. Why? Cos it's a stronger Hold than that in which the wrist is dropped and which is inherently weaker. Anyway, minor point as I can't see the video so I could be completely wrong.

gotta go - work intervenes.

**Diesel_tke** · Posted On: 12/21/2010 9:14am

He looks like he has a pretty well rounded background, striking, ground, weapons, and internal martial arts. I would like to see him in action the way he blends it.

I really enjoy doing Tai Chi, I've been doing it for years. But one of the things I hate is all of the "hidden" applications. This hook is a good example. I was taught that it is used for grabbing, someone else was taught that it is a strike, and someone else uses the elbow for striking.

Brush knee and push, I have been taught was a low block and strike, also a leg trap and then push for a take down. I keep training kickboxing at the same time, and I feel that, while the Tai Chi really helps my rooting, balance, and power generation from the hips; the kickboxing prepares me to use it a lot better.

**Rivington** · Posted On: 12/21/2010 11:07am

Originally Posted by DieselClause

I was taught that it is used for grabbing, someone else was taught that it is a strike, and someone else uses the elbow for striking.

It's all of 'em dude, or an abstraction of the jings used in all of them.

The form isn't a set of single applications set up against a phantom opponent, it's just a long exercise to teach curriculum, breathing, muscular endurance and a whole bunch of moves. But one move can become another. If someone is right on top of me, I can use the elbow as a wedge and get some room. (Think a bit of zhou, a bit of ji.) A little further away, I can just smack him with the elbow and use the hand a little bit at the end a la the "chop" in the video. (My teacher back in Boston suggested that the hand can even be used as a bit of a flourish, so third parties watching the combat will think, "Wow, did that guy just knock the other one down with a flick of his hand" as the elbow to the sternum is quick enough that some won't even register it as issuing the force.) A little further away than that, well then I can grab and bring the guy closer and just strike him with the other hand—put him on the chopping block, then chop him! Or if he's a big lug and he's reaching for me to do the same trick, I'll just do the chop as in the vid.

Don't get me wrong; I'm not one of those "taiji contains no techniques, only principles" ignoramuses. There are tons of techniques, all drilled and trained and talked about and written down. There is some disagreement based on personal experiences, emphases, etc. over what applications to explore and train within a particular posture. So with a basic Chen posture like mortar pounding...what the hell is it? Well, Chen Xiao Wang will say that it's a stomp and Feng Zhi Qiang will say that it's not a stomp. All that means is that it's a stomp and also things other than a stomp—there's no need to take sides. My teacher will show us CXW's interpretation, then FZQ's.

It's also worth noting that some of this confusion is political—during the Cultural Revolution martial arts were suppressed, but basic stretching and exercising one could get away with. So some transmissions of techniques were garbled or lost or confused. Luckily, enough people were doing enough taiji that a lot of the 20th generation by visiting their far-flung cousins and uncles and digging through old magazines and newspapers and talking to oldies who watched all the heavy playing of the old days are putting it back together.

**Eddie Hardon** · Posted On: 12/21/2010 11:50am

Originally Posted by Rivington

So with a basic Chen posture like mortar pounding...what the hell is it? Well, Chen Xiao Wang will say that it's a stomp and Feng Zhi Qiang will say that it's not a stomp. All that means is that it's a stomp and also things other than a stomp—there's no need to take sides. My teacher will show us CXW's interpretation, then FZQ's.

Thanks I liked all of it but picked out this bit 'cos I also recognise it. The first interpretation is what I was taught as my instructor who also visits CXW. I don't know FZQ (but then,what I don't know would fill the British Library). I can add nothing more than that. If only I had the time etc.

For Deisel
Well, much as I enjoy TC, be sure in my training I get lamped on the regular basis so I can empathise with you.

Cheers

**Diesel_tke** · Posted On: 12/21/2010 12:48pm

Originally Posted by Rivington

It's all of 'em dude, or an abstraction of the jings used in all of them.

The form isn't a set of single applications set up against a phantom opponent, it's just a long exercise to teach curriculum, breathing, muscular endurance and a whole bunch of moves. But one move can become another.

Yeah, I get that, it just makes my head swamp some times. It is cool that the single techniques can be used multiple ways. Matter of fact, I think that is the better way for techniques to be. For examle a block that can be used for multiple strikes is better than one that can be for only a specific strike.

(My teacher back in Boston suggested that the hand can even be used as a bit of a flourish, so third parties watching the combat will think, "Wow, did that guy just knock the other one down with a flick of his hand" as the elbow to the sternum is quick enough that some won't even register it as issuing the force.)

That is the first time I have heard this. It is pretty funny, but I could see how it would be cool, too! It would help you to win the mental battle against people you may have to fight later. Kind of like intimidation factor, which sometimes wins the battle before it is started.

It's also worth noting that some of this confusion is political—during the Cultural Revolution martial arts were suppressed, but basic stretching and exercising one could get away with. So some transmissions of techniques were garbled or lost or confused. Luckily, enough people were doing enough taiji that a lot of the 20th generation by visiting their far-flung cousins and uncles and digging through old magazines and newspapers and talking to oldies who watched all the heavy playing of the old days are putting it back together.

Yeah, this is why I wanted to ask some questions. That way I could hear from people who are training in completely different ways and from different people. This way I can see different perspectives.

Which, I really appreciate everyone's opinions and comments!!