Dussack for the Messer

**Mordschlag** · Posted On: 12/08/2010 5:37pm

Got some questions for those who fight using the Messer.

So we know the Dussack seemed to be widely used to train for single-handed weapons like the Messer or arming sword, but it seems (to me) like the Dussack isn't being widely constructed and utilized in today's various HEMA groups. I'm trying to get into the Messer so I got two questions:

I. Do you think Dussack usage has dropped due to the Feder Messers being made now? If so, do you use the Feder Messer or a Dussack for your training? Would you rather buy a wooden Messer waster or just make a Dussack yourself?

II. Is the Dussack an unrealistic simulator for weapons like the Messer? Messers don't have the knuckle guard of the Dussack (as pictured below), though they do have a cross-guard and usually a thumb-guard. Do you feel like the Dussack can help one learn the essentials of Messer combat or is it too beefy?

**DdlR** · Posted On: 12/08/2010 11:02pm

There was some good dussack bouting (using leather dussacks) at the recent Swordfish gathering in Sweden: http://www.youtube.com/results?searc...sh+dusack&aq=f

**lklawson** · Posted On: 12/09/2010 7:40am

Several years back now, ISMAC had a complete seminar class focusing specifically on the Dussak.

I know that Dwight McLemore wrote a book on the Dussak, though his publisher declined it (I suspect they felt it to be too niche for their market).

Anyway, there is obviously some amount of interest.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

**Dirty Rooster** · Posted On: 12/13/2010 12:54pm

Originally Posted by Mordschlag

II. Is the Dussack an unrealistic simulator for weapons like the Messer? Messers don't have the knuckle guard of the Dussack (as pictured below), though they do have a cross-guard and usually a thumb-guard. Do you feel like the Dussack can help one learn the essentials of Messer combat or is it too beefy?

I think it's really good for learning most messer combat, and it allows more training because there should be less finger injuries.
Go for it.
(I have a nagging suspicion not all dussacks had the full guard though...)

**Scott Brown** · Posted On: 1/31/2011 6:10pm

Assuming you mean langes messer as opposed to a kitchen knife!....

Mostly, there just hasn't been a good safe dussack trainer available. Now that Purpleheart Armory is making a good one the popularity of dussack has risen dramatically.

In fact, there are now several tournaments for dussack being held. The first one of which was held last year at the Fechtschule America. (New name)

Beyond that, I remain skeptical that the dussack was intended as a langes messer training weapon specifically. It's not really the same thing. Sure, there are many similar uses but you can say the same thing of a sapling or an umbrella.

If you spend a mentionable amount of time with the texts for both sources you tend to notice a tactical difference in their uses. Obvious examples include an absence of short edge striking and parrying on the cross with the dussack....

**Mordschlag** · Posted On: 1/31/2011 7:26pm

Those Purple Heart ones can suck my balls. I'm not paying like a hundred dollars for some leather, except if it is an Australian whip. You could pay an extra 40 and get one of these:

http://kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=SH2458

Which would be much better for learning the messer than the dussack anyway.

**xinshou** · Posted On: 2/02/2011 3:49pm

Some people believe that that's all the dussack was was a Messer trainer... Anyway, the new Albion Marxbruder is definitely THE best practice messer that I know of.