232401 Bullies, 3924 online  
  • Register
Our Sponsors:

Results 1 to 10 of 37
Page 1 of 4 1 234 LastLast
Sponsored Links Spacer Image
  1. King Sleepless is offline
    King Sleepless's Avatar

    I am a living legend!

    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Cuba
    Posts
    10,058

    Posted On:
    12/01/2010 3:09pm

    supporting member
     Style: Tatsumaki Senpuu Kyaku

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    BJJ videos on youtube are becoming more like "self-defense" videos from retards.

    YouTube - WOW! Dirtyest triangle choke on youtube

    So this was posted on facebook a few days ago. I watched this thing and was like, "WTF." There's so many more practical ways of escaping than doing this. Then it hit me, pretty much 80% of the videos I've watched on youtube bjj related have become, "IF SOMEONE DOES _____ THEN JUST RESPOND WITH ____."

    The issue is, this is the exact same mentality that one-step self defense videos have. If someone throws this really specific punch in this really specific situation, you can specifically respond by doing this really specific thing. Now, the awesome thing about "live training" is that you are training moves not from a specific catalyst, but rather, from a general position. Let's take boxing for example, you'll train combinations knowing full well that you probably won't land all of your attacks. You train high percentage things like a cross counter, or a jab counter. I haven't encountered anybody ever trying to teach me, "IF YOUR OPPONENT HAS HIS LEFT FOOT CROSSED OVER YOUR RIGHT FOOT AND ALREADY THREW HIS JAB, YOU CAN THEN TURN 45* AND THROW A BODY HOOK INTO THEM AND TKO THEM!"

    At what point do we stop doing stupid things like this and get back to just learning stuff from general positions?


    Also, the name of this video is fucking retarded.
  2. W. Rabbit is offline
    W. Rabbit's Avatar

    heaven sent and hell bent but weapons clenched and well kept

    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Work
    Posts
    8,582

    Posted On:
    12/01/2010 3:40pm

    supporting member
     Style: 

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I think this snapshot explains the whole subtext.

  3. superninjagod is offline

    Registered Member

    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Posts
    339

    Posted On:
    12/01/2010 4:33pm


     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Sirc View Post
    YouTube - WOW! Dirtyest triangle choke on youtube

    So this was posted on facebook a few days ago. I watched this thing and was like, "WTF." There's so many more practical ways of escaping than doing this. Then it hit me, pretty much 80% of the videos I've watched on youtube bjj related have become, "IF SOMEONE DOES _____ THEN JUST RESPOND WITH ____."

    The issue is, this is the exact same mentality that one-step self defense videos have. If someone throws this really specific punch in this really specific situation, you can specifically respond by doing this really specific thing. Now, the awesome thing about "live training" is that you are training moves not from a specific catalyst, but rather, from a general position. Let's take boxing for example, you'll train combinations knowing full well that you probably won't land all of your attacks. You train high percentage things like a cross counter, or a jab counter. I haven't encountered anybody ever trying to teach me, "IF YOUR OPPONENT HAS HIS LEFT FOOT CROSSED OVER YOUR RIGHT FOOT AND ALREADY THREW HIS JAB, YOU CAN THEN TURN 45* AND THROW A BODY HOOK INTO THEM AND TKO THEM!"

    At what point do we stop doing stupid things like this and get back to just learning stuff from general positions?


    Also, the name of this video is fucking retarded.
    This has to be the worst comparison of all time.

    There is nothing inherently wrong with training "really specific situations". Only with training "really specific situations" that you are not likely going to come across.

    Piss poor RBSD and MA's that use crappy compliant/non-resisting techniques usually demonstrate one step techniques that are so unrealistic there is no point to them, and that is why they don't transition well to "live" training.

    The Technique is this video is very specific, but I've seen similar "specific" techniques taught at several different BJJ Dojos. I don't see a difference in the methodology of the teaching except that a live teacher infront of you may choose to elaborate more or would teach this technique within a group of techniques from that position.

    In BJJ I've had plenty of people pass my half guard while underhooking my far leg just like the video demonstrated. Arguably that triangle could work out of there.

    You tube video's have been around long enough that I'm sure that many people on this site have picked up a few things by watching them. I've subbed a few opponents from stuff I learned on you tube.

    Anyway you talk about "working" from a certain position. In order to do that you need end goals in mind (ie sweep, sub or change in position). This is just one possibility of an end goal.
  4. Uncle Skippy is offline

    See my tongue. SEE IT!

    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Out West, USA
    Posts
    2,334

    Posted On:
    12/01/2010 5:02pm

    Business Class Supporting Member
      Style: BJJ, MT, TKD

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Sirc View Post
    YouTube - WOW! Dirtyest triangle choke on youtube

    So this was posted on facebook a few days ago. I watched this thing and was like, "WTF." There's so many more practical ways of escaping than doing this. Then it hit me, pretty much 80% of the videos I've watched on youtube bjj related have become, "IF SOMEONE DOES _____ THEN JUST RESPOND WITH ____."

    (snip)

    At what point do we stop doing stupid things like this and get back to just learning stuff from general positions?
    I think you're oversimplifying a bit but I agree with you... on a certain level.

    Disclaimer: I'm not talking about the above video in particular but rather YouTube BJJ videos in general.

    I can't count the number of times that somebody has come into class and attempts something they saw on YouTube. 99.999% of the time, it fails on the first 10-20 attempts. Usually they give up and forget about it. That's a good thing.

    The biggest issue I have with YouTube videos is usually the person demonstrating the technique does not cover how the technique incorporates fundamental concepts (pressure, posture, angle, distance...) It is just "here is a technique; try it!" Then it is tried and it fails over and over and over.

    When you cover the fundamentals, it quickly becomes apparent if a technique is viable and high percentage or gimmicky and low percentage.

    While I think that it is great to share techniques and that there are some good techniques on YouTube (I've picked up a couple myself), Sirc has a point that there are lot of low-percentage technique videos on YouTube that rely on rare situations and a lack of understanding of fundamentals. Is it 80% like he says? I don't know. I haven't watched all of them (and I don't think he has either :-P).

    In the video that Sirc posted, it might work against a white belt or new blue, but as soon as the person on top has the fundamental knowledge to know that blocking the near-side hip is paramount to completing that pass, the triangle attempt will get you in trouble very quickly, especially if you wait until the person on top opens your legs. That pass is one of my 3 bread and butter passes from full/half guard and completing it is fundamentally easy.

    Fundamentals are what tie very specific situational 'moves' back to the general position. Without them, you are only working on a permutation, not the position.
  5. Petter is offline

    12th level logic wielder

    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Vancouver, BC
    Posts
    1,964

    Posted On:
    12/01/2010 5:04pm


     Style: BJJ, judo, rapier

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Sirc View Post
    The issue is, this is the exact same mentality that one-step self defense videos have. If someone throws this really specific punch in this really specific situation, you can specifically respond by doing this really specific thing. Now, the awesome thing about "live training" is that you are training moves not from a specific catalyst, but rather, from a general position.
    To me, the awesome thing about live training is that it forces me to explore and generalise the specific techniques Iíve learned.

    Iíve been taught triangle chokes. For the most part, this has been a very simple, canonical triangle-from-guard setup where my opponent sits square in my guard, and I either push an arm through, or capitalise on some mistake, or bait it with an armbar, or whateveróbut although Iíve been taught some specific variations, the triangle itself was always the same.

    Now, the few times I sink it in sparring (I am particularly bad at triangles), it generally doesnít look all that much like that canonical triangle. I catch it from an unexpected angle, or from the top, and once in some bastard reverse triangle I couldnít replicate if my life depended on it. So clearly, I donít seem to be able to use that one very specific triangle I was taught, unmodified. ButÖ

    At what point do we stop doing stupid things like this and get back to just learning stuff from general positions?
    ÖWhat exactly is a ďgeneral positionĒ supposed to be, anyway? The moment anyone shows you how to do anything, it is a specific technique in a specific demonstration scenario. I donít think the value of live training is that it somehow avoids this inevitable fact, but rather, that live training introduces uncertainty and variation into the scenario and forces you to expand, extrapolate, and improvise.

    I donít think that the problem with the aforementioned self defence videos is that they show very specific scenarios, per se. I think the problem is that if you only train the choreographed scenarios, you never gain the ability to adapt and generalise. Take two classes of people; show them the exact same choreographed demonstration, then have one class drill the chorepgraphed setup for two hours and the other class, drill it with live sparring. The latter class will kick the formerís collective ass, and that is why live training is superior.
    [ petterhaggholm.net | blog | essays ]
    [ self defence: general thoughts | bjj: ďdonít go to the groundĒ? ]
    ďThe plural of anecdote is anecdotes, not data
  6. Uncle Skippy is offline

    See my tongue. SEE IT!

    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Out West, USA
    Posts
    2,334

    Posted On:
    12/01/2010 5:07pm

    Business Class Supporting Member
      Style: BJJ, MT, TKD

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Petter View Post
    Take two classes of people; show them the exact same choreographed demonstration, then have one class drill the chorepgraphed setup for two hours and the other class, drill it with live sparring. The latter class will kick the formerís collective ass, and that is why live training is superior.
    My money is on the third class of people: drill it for an hour, then live sparring for an hour.

    I cheated ;-)
  7. King Sleepless is offline
    King Sleepless's Avatar

    I am a living legend!

    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Cuba
    Posts
    10,058

    Posted On:
    12/02/2010 12:44am

    supporting member
     Style: Tatsumaki Senpuu Kyaku

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Petter View Post
    To me, the awesome thing about live training is that it forces me to explore and generalise the specific techniques Iíve learned.

    Iíve been taught triangle chokes. For the most part, this has been a very simple, canonical triangle-from-guard setup where my opponent sits square in my guard, and I either push an arm through, or capitalise on some mistake, or bait it with an armbar, or whateveróbut although Iíve been taught some specific variations, the triangle itself was always the same.

    Now, the few times I sink it in sparring (I am particularly bad at triangles), it generally doesnít look all that much like that canonical triangle. I catch it from an unexpected angle, or from the top, and once in some bastard reverse triangle I couldnít replicate if my life depended on it. So clearly, I donít seem to be able to use that one very specific triangle I was taught, unmodified. ButÖ


    ÖWhat exactly is a ďgeneral positionĒ supposed to be, anyway? The moment anyone shows you how to do anything, it is a specific technique in a specific demonstration scenario. I donít think the value of live training is that it somehow avoids this inevitable fact, but rather, that live training introduces uncertainty and variation into the scenario and forces you to expand, extrapolate, and improvise.

    I donít think that the problem with the aforementioned self defence videos is that they show very specific scenarios, per se. I think the problem is that if you only train the choreographed scenarios, you never gain the ability to adapt and generalise. Take two classes of people; show them the exact same choreographed demonstration, then have one class drill the chorepgraphed setup for two hours and the other class, drill it with live sparring. The latter class will kick the formerís collective ass, and that is why live training is superior.
    A general position is as such: side control, guard, mount, scarf hold, back, etc. Don't worry, I'm not desanctifying your blessed art or anything. I'm just saying, it's beginning to look a lot like TKD. Back in the 80's when it didn't look any different than say... K-1 kickboxing, then they wanted rules. Then they started doing "self-defense" techniques to have a curriculum. Then they started focusing on the sport of Olympic Style TKD. Of course they had to make it seem like it wasn't just kickboxing with a different name. It's little things like this. Like Gracie Barra. Like Royce Gracie seminar blue/purple/brown belts. Like not allowing leg attacks until... brown belt. Etc. Etc.

    It'll all come around in the end. You'll see. Mark my words. You'll see it coming.
  8. King Sleepless is offline
    King Sleepless's Avatar

    I am a living legend!

    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Cuba
    Posts
    10,058

    Posted On:
    12/02/2010 12:46am

    supporting member
     Style: Tatsumaki Senpuu Kyaku

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Santa Gnaws View Post
    I think you're oversimplifying a bit but I agree with you... on a certain level.

    Disclaimer: I'm not talking about the above video in particular but rather YouTube BJJ videos in general.

    I can't count the number of times that somebody has come into class and attempts something they saw on YouTube. 99.999% of the time, it fails on the first 10-20 attempts. Usually they give up and forget about it. That's a good thing.

    The biggest issue I have with YouTube videos is usually the person demonstrating the technique does not cover how the technique incorporates fundamental concepts (pressure, posture, angle, distance...) It is just "here is a technique; try it!" Then it is tried and it fails over and over and over.

    When you cover the fundamentals, it quickly becomes apparent if a technique is viable and high percentage or gimmicky and low percentage.

    While I think that it is great to share techniques and that there are some good techniques on YouTube (I've picked up a couple myself), Sirc has a point that there are lot of low-percentage technique videos on YouTube that rely on rare situations and a lack of understanding of fundamentals. Is it 80% like he says? I don't know. I haven't watched all of them (and I don't think he has either :-P).

    In the video that Sirc posted, it might work against a white belt or new blue, but as soon as the person on top has the fundamental knowledge to know that blocking the near-side hip is paramount to completing that pass, the triangle attempt will get you in trouble very quickly, especially if you wait until the person on top opens your legs. That pass is one of my 3 bread and butter passes from full/half guard and completing it is fundamentally easy.

    Fundamentals are what tie very specific situational 'moves' back to the general position. Without them, you are only working on a permutation, not the position.
    Hey, I said 80% of the videos I've watched are bullshit specific counter moments. This kind of retarded bullshit is what bothers me. I've seen people bring it to classes and stuff and it fails miserably. It's like the Kung Fu people of old who get hold of a scroll or some **** and think they've found the Kama Sutra of fighting or something.
  9. superninjagod is offline

    Registered Member

    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Posts
    339

    Posted On:
    12/02/2010 1:50am


     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Sirc View Post
    A general position is as such: side control, guard, mount, scarf hold, back, etc. Don't worry, I'm not desanctifying your blessed art or anything. I'm just saying, it's beginning to look a lot like TKD. Back in the 80's when it didn't look any different than say... K-1 kickboxing, then they wanted rules. Then they started doing "self-defense" techniques to have a curriculum. Then they started focusing on the sport of Olympic Style TKD. Of course they had to make it seem like it wasn't just kickboxing with a different name. It's little things like this. Like Gracie Barra. Like Royce Gracie seminar blue/purple/brown belts. Like not allowing leg attacks until... brown belt. Etc. Etc.

    It'll all come around in the end. You'll see. Mark my words. You'll see it coming.
    I fail to see your connection here. First of all you are comparing two very different Martial arts. One is striking based, and one is grappling based. Then you are suppose to be talking about posting crappy videos, but then you are talking about adding rules which have nothing to do with posting **** videos.

    But seriously, you are trying to compare crappy bjj/judo/sambo vids to crappy self defense vids. Although both are crappy they are crappy for completely different reasons. One doesn't work cause its completely unrealistic, and another works but is so specific it becomes low percentage.

    As an aside, today I was working with a blue belt, and we were working a technique that was demonstrated from the guard (when a person does a lay and prey). We both managed to epically fail one of the variations. A purple belt walked by and corrected us and then we were fine....

    So based on my experience today, how do we know that these people coming into the dojo with a youtube technique aren't just missing one or two details to make the technique much more proficient?

    And finally just because a technique is low percentage for you, it doesn't mean it is low percentage for everyone. Somebody might really like that technique and can land it every time. Others will never land it during a roll.
    Given the general ability demonstrated by the people in the video, I doubt that they would take time out of their day to record a video of a technique that they have had no personal success with.


    Anyway there must be something else to bitch about
  10. King Sleepless is offline
    King Sleepless's Avatar

    I am a living legend!

    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Cuba
    Posts
    10,058

    Posted On:
    12/02/2010 4:38am

    supporting member
     Style: Tatsumaki Senpuu Kyaku

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by superninjagod View Post
    I fail to see your connection here. First of all you are comparing two very different Martial arts. One is striking based, and one is grappling based. Then you are suppose to be talking about posting crappy videos, but then you are talking about adding rules which have nothing to do with posting **** videos.

    But seriously, you are trying to compare crappy bjj/judo/sambo vids to crappy self defense vids. Although both are crappy they are crappy for completely different reasons. One doesn't work cause its completely unrealistic, and another works but is so specific it becomes low percentage.

    As an aside, today I was working with a blue belt, and we were working a technique that was demonstrated from the guard (when a person does a lay and prey). We both managed to epically fail one of the variations. A purple belt walked by and corrected us and then we were fine....

    So based on my experience today, how do we know that these people coming into the dojo with a youtube technique aren't just missing one or two details to make the technique much more proficient?

    And finally just because a technique is low percentage for you, it doesn't mean it is low percentage for everyone. Somebody might really like that technique and can land it every time. Others will never land it during a roll.
    Given the general ability demonstrated by the people in the video, I doubt that they would take time out of their day to record a video of a technique that they have had no personal success with.


    Anyway there must be something else to bitch about
    You clearly clearly do not get it as you have already admitted. You don't see the god damned connection. Please, I know that you're taking great offense to having your holy ground being tread on but you're too much of a n00b to understand what's going on here.

    How long have you been doing martial arts? 6 months? 8 months? I don't think you get it. This isn't a comparison of striking art vs. grappling art. This isn't a comparison of your views on the differences between a self-defense technique (which by the way, BJJ has some and they're fucking awful.) and a shitty grappling technique.

    It's commentary on shitty people following the same shitty mindset of how arts that were good and how they fell down the hole of commercialism and watering down. You're clearly not getting it. You're looking at this one technique and you're basing your entire bullshit argument on it. I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT THIS ONE VIDEO. IT'S ALL OF THEM.

    Fucking **** dicks. This is why we can't have nice things. It's assholes like you who let this kind of bullshit slide.
Page 1 of 4 1 234 LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Powered by vBulletin™© contact@vbulletin.com vBulletin Solutions, Inc. 2011 All rights reserved.