Chinese MMA Thing

ff · Posted On: 11/22/2010 1:09pm

Full Disclosure: I am the guy whose blog is under discussion, I don't have a related screen name cause I've been lurking on this site since I was 14, and naturally didn't want to open a new account.

I gotta say, that the people on this forum are pretty cool. I usually post on Rum Soaked Fist, which is pretty cut throat because it consists of 1000 middle aged ITCMA teachers, fighting over the last remaining 2-3 potential students that don't know what MMA is yet.

Overall, most of what has been said about my stuff is pretty insightful. However, I hope you will permit me to defend myself briefly, not that I really feel under attack.

Firstly, I question the assertion that forms are not a useful training aid. When "performed" by people that are concerned with bullshit like "energy flow" or outward technique, the do suck. However, when performed with an emphasis on the mental elements of training, particularly visualization, they are highly effective. Mental training and repetitive drilling of technique have proven value, the Tao Lu or form is just a culturally specific way of taking advantage of these types of training.

Furthermore, the Taiji sets we practice are very physically taxing and entirely different from what is practiced by senior citizens today. Taiji and kungfu in general is first and for most an athletic skill in our opinion, and our training reflects that. We also believe in pad-work and sparring. As Mr. Zhang says: "As a fighter, the main thing is to spend most of your time hitting things that move"

Will it be hard to convince fighters, to try this type of Kung fu training? Not necessarily, we've already had some success in this area. Something about kungfu is just inherently awesome, and fighters like to do awesome stuff. Tell me you didn't enjoy the training montage in "Hard To Kill."

The other point I'd like to address is my teacher. Mr. Zhang. I usually call him mister Zhang because the appellation Master, is an English language marketing gimmick with no Chinese equivalent.

I guess some people might find his appearance strange, but I assure you he is a very genuine person, and also very very good at fighting. So good in fact that it would be irresponsible for me to try to describe the extent of his abilities here since a rational person would not accept such claims without proof. The main thing is that his farm is a nice place to train and he does indeed have the connections to make fights happen if he finds some game young men or women who want to participate.

So far it's just three people going to the camp. As mentioned above though, the more skilled and more numerous training partners you have the stronger you can become. So I hold out hope we can make the full ten, this year. Although, as the only bilingual attendee thus far, it'll be a heck of a responsibility making sure that that many people don't get lost on our monthly sight seeing trip.

Anyhow, I really respect what this forum stands for. Thanks for your cautious optimism! I prefer to meet guys who don't think Kungfu is real, than credulous jagoff's who want to give me all their money because they think I can shove a ghost up their ass and give them Taiji super powers. I hope I can find a few people in between the two extremes though cause this trip is going to be awesome.

:5yinyang:

YouTube - Steven Seagal - Hard to Kill - Meditation & Training Scene

**It is Fake** · Posted On: 11/22/2010 2:31pm

Thanks for posting.

Defend yourself from what? Asking to see results is not wrong. The training looks good but, there are no results as of yet. We haven't seen you spar or compete. Is it a little jaded? Of course, you seem intelligent and know how many embarrassing videos I can find. Not to mention, how many experiences many of us have with good LOOKING training that turns out poor.

Don't take it as a negative.

Firstly, I question the assertion that forms are not a useful training aid. When "performed" by people that are concerned with bullshit like "energy flow" or outward technique, the do suck. However, when performed with an emphasis on the mental elements of training, particularly visualization, they are highly effective. Mental training and repetitive drilling of technique have proven value, the Tao Lu or form is just a culturally specific way of taking advantage of these types of training.

Which can be accomplished without forms. I enjoy forms and think they can be useful. Useful and necessary are two arguments that people can't separate. Everything in your video can be done without forms and still involve visualization. If you need articles, I can show you OLD masters that laugh at the focus on forms. It is cultural IMO like hip-hop is to African Americans. It depends on the generation.

Will it be hard to convince fighters, to try this type of Kung fu training? Not necessarily, we've already had some success in this area. Something about kungfu is just inherently awesome, and fighters like to do awesome stuff. Tell me you didn't enjoy the training montage in "Hard To Kill."

Yes, it is hard to convince fighters to train in kung fu period. That's why many kung fu schools are closing and griping about MMA/BJJ/Sport based schools.

Produce winners with actual results and it will change the perceptions. I'm glad your teacher uses pads and such. Also, stick to naming your style.

Good luck.

ff · Posted On: 11/22/2010 5:01pm

That's a valid point It Is Fake. forms aren't necessary. One of the major styles we practice is Yi Quan, which does away with forms completely. I like them myself, and I think they do have unique benefits, although by no means indispensable ones. Out on the farm there's nothing else to do but train most days anyway, so even if you don't like a certain exercise the opportunity cost is lower, for doing it anyway. You'd be surprised how easy it is to finally get some flexibility work done, when there is literally nothing else to do.

As for the issue of convincing fighters to join in, I'm more of the opinion that it's tough allover. The vast majority of MMA gyms are economically feasible only because of highly suspect childcare/TKD programs. My own MMA GYM Stronghold MMA Columbia, where I trained for most of college, became defunct this year, despite producing some of the most successful fighters in the area!

100 fighters paying 100 dollars a month=10,000/m. Overhead could easily be 6-7,000 before coaching salaries. **** breaks and needs fixing, coaches quit, people get injured. Oh, I forgot insurance, advertising, and of course taxes! That's what I call treading water.

Compare that to running a daycare, break the time up into different demographics. 100 toddlers, a hundred preteen, 100 primary school students all coming in at different times, taught for free by volunteer black belts. Then you sell uniforms, charge testing fees, do seminars, birthdays, donation drives, get the parents to sign up, charge them extra. People's kids get older, they put their second and third kids in your beginners classes. Establish a "demo team."Get paid to do board breaking demonstrations at local festivals. Collect cultural exchange grants for promoting Asian culture. Pre-teens become an army of brainwashed 19 year olds that will work for free. Then you can start adding MMA and Qigong to your "advanced" classes to keep them interested. Unfortunately by this point you are so fat that you can't teach properly and this becomes pretty obvious to some of your more athletic students, who by this time know your whole business model. At this point they do one of three things, start a competing school and run you out of business, quit, or start doing something better but far less profitable like MMA or Kick Boxing. People by corvettes doing that **** every damn day, while fighters work at marble slab, and lose their women to supplement sales representatives who drive BMW's. Capitalism can be a cruel mistress.:gwbdance:
So like I said, I can't complain. Oh wait, I just did.

Sadly most people just don't enjoy what we enjoy, but on the other hand those who love it, love it. It would be nice to have a huge media engine behind me, like the UFC. But I can't blame my difficulties on my style, in a world where MMA gyms, college wrestling program, and even boxing gyms are hurting too.

However, I think we can all agree on one thing, which is that the stakes are pretty high to develop an economic model that pushes martial arts in the right direction instead of tearing them apart. I used to think MMA had solved that but I was wrong, look at what's going on in the industry right now and I think you'll agree.

I don't have the answers to the big problems yet, our school is going to be supported %99 percent by farming revenues and "spiritual tourism" for the foreseeable future. Mabye that will be okay in our case though, as long as we can keep doing fun side projects like this one. Taking people to see the great wall a couple times a year gets old, but at least to me, it beats working with an ever changing group or reluctant children and constantly having to deal with overprotective parents.

I really appreciate skepticism about what we do, but I also hope to inspire some curiosity. The last things I want are pre-emptive pats on the back for things that haven't been accomplished yet. Unless they come in the form of a Nobel Peace Prize that is:eusa_whis

Edit:"stick to naming your style" I don't have a style, more like a desire to maintain my freedom of movement no matter who tries to cut me off your press down on me. However, at Fang Mountain, three teachers teach dozens of styles. So the noun Kungfu is probably the best descriptor of what we do.
YouTube - Yang Stlye Tai Chi: Yang Jianhou's Transmission (Part 1-3/6)

**It is Fake** · Posted On: 11/22/2010 5:16pm

Originally Posted by ff

As for the issue of convincing fighters to join in, I'm more of the opinion that it's tough allover. The vast majority of MMA gyms are economically feasible only because of highly suspect childcare/TKD programs. My own MMA GYM Stronghold MMA Columbia, where I trained for most of college, became defunct this year, despite producing some of the most successful fighters in the area!

Wow that's the strangest correaltion I have seen in a minute. No, you probably mean TKD with MMA tack on programs.

100 fighters paying 100 dollars a month=10,000/m. Overhead could easily be 6-7,000 before coaching salaries. **** breaks and needs fixing, coaches quit, people get injured. Oh, I forgot insurance, advertising, and of course taxes! That's what I call treading water.

Which applies to a general CMA gym as well.

Compare that to running a daycare, break the time up into different demographics. 100 toddlers, a hundred preteen, 100 primary school students all coming in at different times, taught for free by volunteer black belts. Then you sell uniforms, charge testing fees, do seminars, birthdays, donation drives, get the parents to sign up, charge them extra. People's kids get older, they put their second and third kids in your beginners classes. Establish a "demo team."Get paid to do board breaking demonstrations at local festivals. Collect cultural exchange grants for promoting Asian culture. Pre-teens become an army of brainwashed 19 year olds that will work for free. Then you can start adding MMA and Qigong to your "advanced" classes to keep them interested. Unfortunately by this point you are so fat that you can't teach properly and this becomes pretty obvious to some of your more athletic students, who by this time know your whole business model. At this point they do one of three things, start a competing school and run you out of business, quit, or start doing something better but far less profitable like MMA or Kick Boxing. People by corvettes doing that **** every damn day, while fighters work at marble slab, and lose their women to supplement sales representatives who drive BMW's. Capitalism can be a cruel mistress.:gwbdance:
So like I said, I can't complain. Oh wait, I just did.

You are describing a TKD school with a tack on MMA program.

Sadly most people just don't enjoy what we enjoy, but on the other hand those who love it, love it. It would be nice to have a huge media engine behind me, like the UFC. But I can't blame my difficulties on my style, in a world where MMA gyms, college wrestling program, and even boxing gyms are hurting too.

All gyms are hurting yes. Kung Fu is hurting more. When you start seeing MMA/BJJ gyms attacking CMA with the same venom then you'll know the tables have turned.

However, I think we can all agree on one thing, which is that the stakes are pretty high to develop an economic model that pushes martial arts in the right direction instead of tearing them apart. I used to think MMA had solved that but I was wrong, look at what's going on in the industry right now and I think you'll agree.

What? It has become one of the most lucrative fighting sports after Kickboxing, Sport Karate, Muay thai, Kung Fu, XMA, and others tried and failed.

So, please let me know what you mean by "what's going on in the industry now." Then I can let you know if I agree.

Oh and it looks like your GYM is reopening today:
http://strongholdmma.com/

**Lindz** · Posted On: 11/22/2010 6:14pm

You (or anyone else at your school) planning on doing any San Da, Lei Tai or MMA in the near future?

**Ming Loyalist** · Posted On: 11/22/2010 6:43pm

Originally Posted by Lindz

You (or anyone else at your school) planning on doing any San Da, Lei Tai or MMA in the near future?

he made it pretty clear that all the students at the mountain program would be taking fights of some sort, and it sounded like some would be lei tai, sanda and mma.

**ChenPengFi** · Posted On: 11/22/2010 7:40pm

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**Lindz** · Posted On: 11/22/2010 9:47pm

Originally Posted by Ming Loyalist

he made it pretty clear that all the students at the mountain program would be taking fights of some sort, and it sounded like some would be lei tai, sanda and mma.

Oops. I find my reading comprehension goes down when I read the forums at work. Eagerly awaiting the results of those fights.

ff · Posted On: 11/22/2010 10:42pm

That's good news about Stronghold, I wish Vince the best of luck. Stronghold didn't get a fair shake the first time around. A ton of stuff went wrong. I've changed gyms in the meantime, and I know some other guys have too. I hope they get most of the old group back though, cause as the website said they had some of the best fighters in town after just two years.

What I was trying to say, before I got lost in hyperbole. Is that the martial arts that thrive are the ones with the best business model.

CMA has always had the worst business model because the traditional kungfu business model is essentially, become a badass and wait for people to give you presents as a show of respect. Something that is still quite viable in China today. TKD and Karate, will allways be profitable businesses because the Dan Kyu system is such a potent, and somehow legal form of pyramid scheme.

When it comes to MMA however, too much pressure is being put on fighters desire to fight. People who fight make huge sacrifices because they love fighting so much even though almost no MMA fighter will ever make any money.

It's true that MMA has taken away some economic power from TMA. In the form of stealing the 18-25 year old males who are famously the most lucrative demographic. So MMA can be profitable with sponsorships. Other ways to make money include, selling t-shirts and supplements, as well as staging ammeter MMA shows as a for prophet enterprise. TKD and Karate are still doing what they do best however, pumping the cash out of everybody else, and in fact if you think about it the 18-25 year olds were really just in the way. It's much better to have middle aged women as blackbelts because they have plenty of time and tend to be better with Kid$.

The current system is producing exciteing elite fighters who are getting paid better and better wages, but the bulk of MMA is allays going to be low level pro or amateur, and even Dana White has said he fails to see how the current state of affairs is doing fighters much good. I find this especially disheartening when we see that most of them are uninsured and working a side job while training.

It would be nice if there was some way to take some of the economic burden off the fighters and put it on the corporations that are making a ton of money as you said.

In summation, CMA has never been very popular, because it has never had a good business model behind it, and it is still far easier to make money the TKD way because all the angles of the business model have been figured out. Not that I endorse such practices.

That said I'm sure things are better in MMA states like California, and Ohio. Things out here look rougher but Ryan and Vince are skilled warriors and may yet fight their way to success.

Also I have to say, thinking about it from another perspective. As a sport MMA is much more forgiving to the participants than either football or basketball. I would say I might be judging it from the wrong standard except I'm in favor of reforming those sports too.