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  1. DKJr is offline
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    Fasten your seat belts, and prepare for lift off

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    Posted On:
    11/10/2010 1:40pm

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     Style: Combat Cuddling

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by SifuJason View Post
    No; pretty much standard.
    Thus something you could not get else where but better?
  2. Whacker is offline
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    Pulling mount since '09

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    Posted On:
    11/10/2010 1:48pm


     Style: jits da variedade brasile

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    Quote Originally Posted by Southpaw View Post
    So what does Shamar look like? Did you guys see anything that wasn't contained in BJJ or kickboxing...or any indication that there is anything unique about Shamar?
    I can't comment on his striking other than it looked like what one would expect in an ammy cage fight, but Brian's performance looked exactly like a wrestler with a solid background in BJJ.
  3. Whacker is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/10/2010 2:23pm


     Style: jits da variedade brasile

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Phillips View Post
    Whacker, I have to say I object to the way you are processing this. The guy won his fight, apparently in fairly impressive fashion, and was representing the Shamar system. It is a victory for Brinn's camp. Period. The Fact that Brinn was not in the corner is completely irrelevant if the person in his corner is also representing Brinn's system. Way back when this shitstorm started I told Jason that I doubted his training ideas would work. Now there is some, albeit limited, evidence to the contrary. I have to process that and adjust the strength of my belief in that hypothesis. ANY RATIONAL PERSON involved in this debate has to do the same.

    Now clearly Aney's BJJ coach deserves some credit as well, but do you have any reason to believe that person (or persons) actually trained him for this fight? Along the same lines, do you have a reference or verification for your claim that Brinn's fighter has a significant wrestling background? We can't start moving goal posts here.

    If we are going to rake people over the coals here, we have a responsibility to adjust the line of criticsm as new evidence becomes available.
    In what ways exactly am I stating things that are "objectionable"?

    Brian's wrestling background was mentioned before. I took a second or two to search the thread and came up with IIF's post here: http://www.bullshido.net/forums/show...postcount=1527 . There was more to it but that's a start. Obviously the best way to put that to bed is get Brian in here and ask his background, where he went to school, high school, and possibly college, then validate when and if he trained with the coaches at the time and based on the school program records.

    You know the phrase we use on here very well. "Looks like a duck, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck..." Let me give you an analogy, I'll use maofas as a purely hypothetical example. Say maofas decides he wants to form his own martial arts system that we'll call Tomfoolery and promotes himself to 6th BB just like Brinn. He wants some rep for it, so he co-opts me as a "student" and I agree to make my ammy debut while claiming rank in Tomfoolery. I continue my training at my current very, very legitimate gym in BJJ, wrestling, and Muay Thai, and every once in a blue moon I go out and "train" with maofas in the public parks or his basement. My debut fight happens and I wreck my opponent, and maofas claims that all or the majority of my skills come from him. Does all this sound familiar? If Brian is willing to come out and make a sworn, written, witnessed statement about the amount and ratios of training he is getting from Brinn and other sources, AND he'd submit to a polygraph to verify, THEN maybe I'd start to attribute some of his martial skill to Brinn's training. As it stands now, the only thing I could possibly see would be some level of cardio training, and it's not like Brian wouldn't get plenty of that training BJJ at Prof. Carioca's place. So, is it possible that some of Brian's ability can be attributed to Brinn? Sure, anything is possible. Is it likely? Given what's been brought to light thus far with Brian's background and Brinn's ability or lack thereof, it's highly doubtful.
  4. DKJr is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/10/2010 2:37pm

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     Style: Combat Cuddling

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Hell Whacker I've seen legit mma schools do the same thing, slap their name on people with past experience and claim credit.
  5. Matt Phillips is offline
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    NOTE TO SELF - MOAR GRAPPLE - GET A NORMAL HAIR CUT - REPEAT

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    Posted On:
    11/10/2010 3:19pm

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     Style: Novice Sub Grappler

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Whacker View Post
    In what ways exactly am I stating things that are "objectionable"?
    "I object" is actually different that "your statements are objectionable"; the objection is mine and not universal.

    Brian's wrestling background was mentioned before. I took a second or two to search the thread and came up with IIF's post here: http://www.bullshido.net/forums/show...postcount=1527 .
    I don't see Brian's name anywhere in that post. You're making an assumption

    There was more to it but that's a start.
    Can you post it?

    Obviously the best way to put that to bed is get Brian in here and ask his background, where he went to school, high school, and possibly college, then validate when and if he trained with the coaches at the time and based on the school program records.
    I'd ask him if he wrestled first, rather than ask for his educational history up front like this. Other than that, I agree.

    You know the phrase we use on here very well. "Looks like a duck, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck..." Let me give you an analogy, I'll use maofas as a purely hypothetical example. Say maofas decides he wants to form his own martial arts system that we'll call Tomfoolery and promotes himself to 6th BB just like Brinn.
    So far so good.

    He wants some rep for it, so he co-opts me as a "student" and I agree to make my ammy debut while claiming rank in Tomfoolery.
    I don't really see how this "co-opting" is going to happen unless the person in question is a retard. Who fights under a banner they don't believe in?

    I continue my training at my current very, very legitimate gym in BJJ, wrestling, and Muay Thai, and every once in a blue moon I go out and "train" with maofas in the public parks or his basement.
    Is this part of your analogy really responsible? Do you have any information as to Brian's actual distribution of training time between the two schools? If you do, please post it.

    My debut fight happens and I wreck my opponent, and maofas claims that all or the majority of my skills come from him.
    No one made any claim about Shamar getting credit except me, and I am not Jason by a long shot. I also never specifically said anything about Shamar getting the majority of the credit. I did, however argue that Brinn's system deserves to get a "W" for this match.

    Does all this sound familiar? If Brian is willing to come out and make a sworn, written, witnessed statement about the amount and ratios of training he is getting from Brinn and other sources, AND he'd submit to a polygraph to verify, THEN maybe I'd start to attribute some of his martial skill to Brinn's training.
    Wouldn't it be a lot more realistic to simply ask Brian?

    As it stands now, the only thing I could possibly see would be some level of cardio training, and it's not like Brian wouldn't get plenty of that training BJJ at Prof. Carioca's place. So, is it possible that some of Brian's ability can be attributed to Brinn? Sure, anything is possible. Is it likely? Given what's been brought to light thus far with Brian's background and Brinn's ability or lack thereof, it's highly doubtful.
    Again, one of you local fellows should simply ask Aney and post what you learn. Since there are actual facts to be discovered, speculating based on the contents of the thread is unnecessary.
    Now darkness comes; you don't know if the whales are coming. - Royce Gracie


    KosherKickboxer has t3h r34l chi sao

    In De Janerio, in blackest night,
    Luta Livre flees the fight,
    Behold Maeda's sacred tights;
    Beware my power... Blue Lantern's light!
  6. SifuJason is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/10/2010 3:22pm


     Style: WHKD (Kaju), Sub. Grapple

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by David Koresh Jr. View Post
    Thus something you could not get else where but better?
    Not that I saw, but it was a limited demonstration. Looked like decent wrestling, good cardio and good jits. Striking was poor, but they were also tired, so that could account for a lot of that.

    Brinn has been saying his it is methodology that is what is important; more results faster, not different skills, so it can very well be a decent claim given the current evidence.
  7. Matt Phillips is offline
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    NOTE TO SELF - MOAR GRAPPLE - GET A NORMAL HAIR CUT - REPEAT

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    Posted On:
    11/10/2010 3:36pm

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     Style: Novice Sub Grappler

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by maofas View Post
    He can help train 100 successful fighters, but it doesn't have anything to do with the fact he himself rolled like he had 6 mos of BJJ not the 14 years he claimed, made up a bb in Judo, claimed to be pals with Chuck Liddell and business affiliates with a dozen or so competing mma companies, Irish Fucking Cudgel Fighting, claiming to burn certs then viola! they're no longer burned, claims of 18 years of MT still unsubstatiated, getting involved in selling snake oil supplements from a known fraud, claiming people he went to seminars with as his teachers, or claiming to be an instructor in Diato when he was a student and claiming "extensive" training with a Japanese Shihan (and putting out an e-book about it!) when he has under a dozen hours with the guy via seminars. Whew, I'm sure I'm missing some stuff too.
    This has to do with the hypothesis that Jason's methodology was going to lead to disasterous results if he put someone in the cage, and my endorsement of it (back a long ways in the thread). Now that someone representing the system has got in the cage without such disasterous results, fairness dictates that the hypothesis be weakened. That's how rational inquiry works. That is the only issue here as far as I am concerned. The other topics are completely valid, but not relevant to my point.

    If you truly believe that 100 fighters with Shamar rank could successfully compete in MMA and not force a reevaluation of Brinn's system's efficacy for MMA, then you are placing this criticism of Brinn beyond the reach of Falsifiability, and that is not how we are supposed to operate.
    Look, just because you're all buddy buddy with him now online doesn't make him a honest person and it doesn't magically change what the guy was being investigated for.
    If you're refering to the fact that I am friends with him on FB, I'd say again that you are specualting. I have been encouraging Jason to think critically about his choices and world view for more than a year; he is an interesting guy to debate with, and, as you say, a personable fellow. But, and I am sure he will verify this, I won't hesitate to tell him when and where I think he is full of ****.
    Last edited by Matt Phillips; 11/10/2010 4:17pm at .
    Now darkness comes; you don't know if the whales are coming. - Royce Gracie


    KosherKickboxer has t3h r34l chi sao

    In De Janerio, in blackest night,
    Luta Livre flees the fight,
    Behold Maeda's sacred tights;
    Beware my power... Blue Lantern's light!
  8. maofas is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/10/2010 3:59pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Kenkojuku Karate, Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Phillips View Post
    Whacker, I have to say I object to the way you are processing this. The guy won his fight, apparently in fairly impressive fashion, and was representing the Shamar system. It is a victory for Brinn's camp. Period. The Fact that Brinn was not in the corner is completely irrelevant if the person in his corner is also representing Brinn's system. Way back when this shitstorm started I told Jason that I doubted his training ideas would work. Now there is some, albeit limited, evidence to the contrary. I have to process that and adjust the strength of my belief in that hypothesis. ANY RATIONAL PERSON involved in this debate has to do the same.

    Now clearly Aney's BJJ coach deserves some credit as well, but do you have any reason to believe that person (or persons) actually trained him for this fight? Along the same lines, do you have a reference or verification for your claim that Brinn's fighter has a significant wrestling background? We can't start moving goal posts here.

    If we are going to rake people over the coals here, we have a responsibility to adjust the line of criticsm as new evidence becomes available.
    The Jason Brinn investigation was about the title character's exaggerations of skill, rank inflation, and purposefully deceptive advertising.

    His self-created system was only an issue because it was used as a smokescreen to hide behind (i.e. "Hey guys, you can't ask me for my certs anymore because I burned them all in our Shamar ritual! Oh and stop asking me about my fake Judo shodan and BJJ creds because I don't do those arts anymore, I do Shamar!").

    The effectiveness of the system has nothing to do with it and was just a little side derail he tried to start in the middle of this 80,000 page thread.

    He can help train 100 successful fighters, but it doesn't have anything to do with the fact he himself rolled like he had 6 mos of BJJ not the 14 years he claimed, made up a bb in Judo, claimed to be pals with Chuck Liddell and business affiliates with a dozen or so competing mma companies, Irish Fucking Cudgel Fighting, claiming to burn certs then viola! they're no longer burned, claims of 18 years of MT still unsubstatiated, getting involved in selling snake oil supplements from a known fraud, claiming people he went to seminars with as his teachers, or claiming to be an instructor in Diato when he was a student and claiming "extensive" training with a Japanese Shihan (and putting out an e-book about it!) when he has under a dozen hours with the guy via seminars. Whew, I'm sure I'm missing some stuff too.

    Look, just because you're all buddy buddy with him now online doesn't make him a honest person and it doesn't magically change what the guy was being investigated for. I understand he's a reasonably personable fellow when you talk to him, but, really, few people aren't. What's the alternative, run around keying people's cars, slapping their wives, and getting beat up constantly?
  9. Matt Phillips is offline
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    NOTE TO SELF - MOAR GRAPPLE - GET A NORMAL HAIR CUT - REPEAT

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    Posted On:
    11/10/2010 4:32pm

    supporting member
     Style: Novice Sub Grappler

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I am confused... how did my posts get time stamped earlier than the posts I was quoting?

    edit: OK, this is fucking weird: SifuJason's post #3221 has been up for over an hour, and my new post goes before it? Weird.

    For those confused by the out-of-ordering, my posts #3216 and #3218 should be below #3221, not before
    Last edited by Matt Phillips; 11/10/2010 4:40pm at .
    Now darkness comes; you don't know if the whales are coming. - Royce Gracie


    KosherKickboxer has t3h r34l chi sao

    In De Janerio, in blackest night,
    Luta Livre flees the fight,
    Behold Maeda's sacred tights;
    Beware my power... Blue Lantern's light!
  10. SifuJason is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/10/2010 6:03pm


     Style: WHKD (Kaju), Sub. Grapple

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    ^^^^what he said!
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