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  1. goodlun is online now
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    Posted On:
    11/15/2010 5:23pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by W. Rabbit View Post
    The idea is that the device is part of a larger "arena". A good illustration is how the Dance revolution machines have a player field that synchronizes with the overall system.

    A Type 1 without machine vision would essentially involve a person entering a "box" within a certain distance/bearing of the bot and would perform the same types of exercises they might do with a speed bag or punching bag or other types of equipment, but the bot adds the element of interaction: targets pads can move on their own, there would be counter punches for the player to avoid, you could even add a point-based scoring system that adds points for clean target hits but deducts them for any time the bot registers a good strike, etc.

    Type 1 could be envisioned as more like a game system with a robot opponent. The new motion-based home entertainment systems are trying to do the same thing with motion capture....but that type of thing is not what BS type folks really want, I'd wager.
    Um I think training with something like this may do more harm then good. Its just like training with a compliant static partner. Yeah a punch may be thrown from one of 2 or 3 levels using a few different styles of punch but it really is missing aliveness that is needed to be useful.
  2. W. Rabbit is offline
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    insight combined with intel, fuse, and dynamite

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    Posted On:
    11/15/2010 5:31pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by goodlun View Post
    Um I think training with something like this may do more harm then good. Its just like training with a compliant static partner. Yeah a punch may be thrown from one of 2 or 3 levels using a few different styles of punch but it really is missing aliveness that is needed to be useful.
    I edited my last post a bit, cleared some things up.

    Agreed that early conceptions/models will be a bit static, but static would not be the overall goal and its still better than soloing a heavy bag which people still do plenty of....that's dark ages **** in my opinion.

    The aliveness is something that would come over time, as the approximations get better. Robotics research into human behavior is advancing like mad all over (including the #1 motivation: sex toys), so it's not too much of a stretch to think that you can approximate (somehow) various types of "live" training. That's the ultimate design goal, to build a tool that can imitate, as best as possible, "aliveness" for a solo user. I know it seems like an impossibility but I'm willing to work against that conception.

    Computers can follow basic fighting principles pretty easy (don't try X if you're in state Y, if you see an advantage like State A, trigger). State machines can be as complex as they need to be, combined with targeting systems they're as accurate as hell.

    I think a bot that moves and adds just a little randomness would still be better than hitting a dead target that never moves, or even better than punching at a human that never moves.
    Last edited by W. Rabbit; 11/15/2010 5:36pm at .
  3. goodlun is online now
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    Posted On:
    11/15/2010 5:38pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by W. Rabbit View Post

    I think a bot that moves and adds just a little randomness would still be better than hitting a dead target that never moves, or even better than punching at a human that never moves.
    This is where price point starts to get really sticky. frankly with how fast machine vision is advancing hell look at the new kentics system for the 360. You could certainly be done and add a lot more functionality IE actually aim for certain things.
  4. W. Rabbit is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/15/2010 5:43pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by goodlun View Post
    This is where price point starts to get really sticky. frankly with how fast machine vision is advancing hell look at the new kentics system for the 360. You could certainly be done and add a lot more functionality IE actually aim for certain things.
    What you are seeing with the Kinect and those platforms is just the beginning.

    Check this out dude:

    "Toshiba's R&D Labs in Cambridge, UK have developed a system capable of real-time 3D modeling of the human face and body — using a simple set of three different colored lights. Simple it may be, but the results are impressive. Commercial applications for computer vision technology look set to be huge — according professor Roberto Cipolla. On the horizon: cheap and easy digitized everyday objects for ecommerce, plus gesture-based interfaces — a la Natal — and in-car safety systems. Ultimately even driver-less cars. 'This is going to be the decade of computer vision,' predicts Cipolla."


  5. W. Rabbit is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/15/2010 5:51pm

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    Some important data in those articles:

    The human brain processes the gigabytes of data per second delivered through our eyes, enabling us to see and interact with our surroundings. Computer vision technology seeks to give machines the same ability - to process and act on visual data. For example, using a camera as its eye, a computer vision system could perform tasks such as recognising and following objects - something humans can do very easily but that computers have struggled to do until now.



    It is also conjuring up a world of digitised objects - from everyday items you might sell on eBay to the human face and body, all perfectly captured in three dimensions where they can take on a whole new life of their own.
    G/s bandwidth is easily obtainable with cheap onboard IO you can buy off the shelf today, and sparbot would not need even close to that level of detail when you think about it...the resolution for determining colors isn't even necessary, so once you remove color, texture granularity...you end up with really VERY little data processing requirements to use computer vision to capture, model, and analyze basic human movement in REAL TIME (turning, swinging, ducking, juking). In fact, my guess is there are already Kinect games coming to market that do it!

    Praise Science.

  6. Permalost is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/15/2010 6:00pm

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    Is processing data through some cameras enough to give a machine “depth perception”, ie will it know if it is close enough or too far away to hit a person?
  7. MMAMickey is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/15/2010 6:25pm

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    IF this works it would be an amazing technical exercise.. But nobody would buy it.

    You're creating a solution to a problem that doesn't exist.

    You wanna practice fighting, you spar.

    if you're a beginner and you need training, you get a coach.
    "The hero and the coward both feel the same thing, but the hero projects his fear onto his opponent while the coward runs. 'Fear'. It's the same thing, but it's what you do with it that matters". - Cus D'Amato
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  8. goodlun is online now
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    Posted On:
    11/15/2010 6:41pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by CodosDePiedra View Post
    Is processing data through some cameras enough to give a machine “depth perception”, ie will it know if it is close enough or too far away to hit a person?
    All sorts of interesting ways around that problem. An easy one would to be to use 2 cameras. On the other hand I have seen software that does a remarkably good job of taking normal photos and creating rendering them in 3d.
  9. Styygens is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/15/2010 6:42pm


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    Oh... never mind.
    Last edited by Styygens; 11/15/2010 6:50pm at .
  10. Kovacs is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/15/2010 7:24pm


     Style: Kettles (MA hiatus).

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    Quote Originally Posted by MMAMickey View Post
    IF this works it would be an amazing technical exercise.. But nobody would buy it.

    You're creating a solution to a problem that doesn't exist.

    You wanna practice fighting, you spar.

    if you're a beginner and you need training, you get a coach.
    I have to agree. As much as I'd love to see a training bot I'm still not convinced the tech is there yet, look at how complex a jab is on a human, literally from the big toe right up to the middle knuckle and all the movement and energy spent between the two.

    No one is close to making that sort of motion with robotics, let a lone stacking it up with other punches, movement, processing, vision etc.

    I think it's an awesome idea but just not practical... Yet... Bags maybe old school but they're cheap and they work. Same with sparring partners, that 5k can go a long way in training the old fashioned way.
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