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  1. Hiro Protagonist is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/06/2010 11:20am

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Yeah, but this was what killed the movie for me as a youngster.

    You have certain conventions in mind when you go to Blockbusters looking for a Western, and I remember Unforgiven so atypical that it wasn't funny any more.

    Also, I felt like the race issue was kind of inserted to elevate the otherwise conventional story. For example, Pompy in "The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance" IMO was a much more powerful character in that respect than Freeman's. - But of course, this is me today looking back at the movies; maybe spelling things out like Eastwood needed was indeed something new at the time.
    Last edited by Hiro Protagonist; 11/06/2010 11:25am at .
  2. Conde Koma is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/06/2010 11:27am

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     Style: Judo,MT,Boxing,BJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by tangshou View Post
    Bullshido has the best movie reviews on the internet. Seriously. I agree with every review I've ever read on this site.
    D'awww, you're making me blush.



    Glad this one is getting such a good discussion going, I wasn't sure how often I should do Westerns since they don't often fit the flavor of martial arts films. Also, thanks to you guys, I've realized how small my list of Best Westerns is, and I now can go remedy this.
  3. Snake Plissken is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/06/2010 11:27am

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pilgrim View Post
    Yeah, but this was what killed the movie for me as a youngster.
    You have certain conventions in mind when you go to Blockbusters looking for a Western, and I remember Unforgiven so atypical that it wasn't funny any more.
    Go watch High Plains Drifter, Hang 'Em High, Josey Wales, Fistful and Few.
    Then watch Pale Rider.
    THEN go watch Unforgiven.
    It is contextually essential to have a proper frame of reference for this film.


    Also, I felt like the race issue was kind of inserted to elevate the otherwise conventional story. For example, Pompy in "The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance" IMO was a much more powerful character in that respect than Freeman's. - But of course, this is me today looking back at the movies; maybe spelling things out like Eastwood needed was indeed something new at the time.
    Do you know and understand the history of the term:
    cowboy?
  4. Gidi is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/06/2010 12:04pm


     Style: Judo (noob) & BJJ (noob)

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Snake Plissken View Post
    Go watch High Plains Drifter, Hang 'Em High, Josey Wales, Fistful and Few.
    Then watch Pale Rider.
    THEN go watch Unforgiven.
    It is contextually essential to have a proper frame of reference for this film.
    Do you know and understand the history of the term:
    cowboy?
    I don't know if you're referring to these movies for the context or as a list of great westerns.
    If it's the latter, than apart from High-Noon which I've already mentioned, one mustn't forget the 'Magnificent Seven', That's a fun western, and holy crap, what an ensemble.
  5. Hiro Protagonist is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/06/2010 12:07pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by Snake Plissken View Post
    Go watch High Plains Drifter, Hang 'Em High, Josey Wales, Fistful and Few.
    Then watch Pale Rider.
    THEN go watch Unforgiven.
    It is contextually essential to have a proper frame of reference for this film.
    So, basically, what Eastwood does, is he sees a continuity within his Western filmography and tries to round it up? - Interesting idea, but then, if we follow this line of thought, how come Gran Torino was not a Western?

    Quote Originally Posted by Snake Plissken View Post
    Do you know and understand the history of the term:
    cowboy?
    Now, what is that supposed to mean?

    I just felt somewhat disappointed that Freeman was exploited for yet another "Driving Miss Daisy" role, but given that 1992 there was still Apartheid in South Africa, I understand that the historical context might have demanded such a discourse.

    I actually think it's one of the reasons why people tired of the Western as a genre; conventionally, those movies are "all white", and the stylistic excuses - in the sense that it is notoriously explained to the viewer why non-white people have a right to be there - to open the genre are getting fairly repetitive. I think the only one who got that right was "Little Big Man".
  6. Snake Plissken is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/06/2010 12:07pm

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    --
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gidi View Post
    I don't know if you're referring to these movies for the context or as a list of great westerns.
    If it's the latter, than apart from High-Noon which I've already mentioned, one mustn't forget the 'Magnificent Seven', That's a fun western, and holy crap, what an ensemble.
    nah, it was to Pilgrim so he can have a frame of reference of Eastwood's past history with the genre and how his character portrayals have evolved so he could have a proper appreciation for what Eastwood did with Unforgiven.
  7. Gidi is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/06/2010 12:10pm


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    Quote Originally Posted by Snake Plissken View Post
    nah, it was to Pilgrim so he can have a frame of reference of Eastwood's past history with the genre and how his character portrayals have evolved so he could have a proper appreciation for what Eastwood did with Unforgiven.
    Oh, ok. Figured it was that, but I'm always happy to plug the Magnificent Seven
    :tongue5:
  8. Snake Plissken is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/06/2010 12:17pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pilgrim View Post
    So, basically, what Eastwood does, is he sees a continuity within his Western filmography and tries to round it up? - Interesting idea, but then, if we follow this line of thought, how come Gran Torino was not a Western?
    He has evolved from a one-dimensional gunslighter to a fully formed man with faults and foibles and how they impact his decisions.


    Now, what is that supposed to mean?
    Do you know where the word came from and what it meant?

    They were essentially "freed slaves" or "escaped slaves" who didn't want to go north after (cue Tortelli) The War of Northern Aggression and they bought into the promise of the US Governments claims that "all men are created equal and all men can stake their claim" out West.

    Essentially you had men thinking they could farm and ranch and mine on land out west, when it wasn't the case. Texas was a confederate state and areas like Kansas (Dodge City) were sympathetic to the conderate cause (look up Bleeding Kansas and the Kansas Border war).

    Most of the freed or escaped slaves ended up as ranch hands for the cattle barons which was a bit of a step-up but not what was promised and the origin of the word:
    cowBOY is racial in nature.

    They were able to integrate into the west by nature of the rifle and peacemaker which allow men to be more equal and found some manner of brotherhood among the Mexican and American Indian people, who were also discriminated against.
  9. Hiro Protagonist is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/06/2010 3:36pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by Snake Plissken View Post
    He has evolved from a one-dimensional gunslighter to a fully formed man with faults and foibles and how they impact his decisions.
    Fair enough.

    Quote Originally Posted by Snake Plissken View Post
    cowBOY is racial in nature.

    They were able to integrate into the west by nature of the rifle and peacemaker which allow men to be more equal and found some manner of brotherhood among the Mexican and American Indian people, who were also discriminated against.
    ...Yet, as per the sources I know, only one quarter of all herders of cows was black, and only by the end of the 19th century.

    Talking about the issue, a movie that depicted Mexican cowboys as anything other than puny idiots or brutal bandits would be more in order. (I'm looking at you, remake of Alamo of 2004.)

    I'm not quite sure, though, what we're discussing here.

    I'm not opposed to the portrayal of racism in Unforgiven, all to the contrary. It's just that I find the movie slightly less entertaining than others of the genre. - If, as discussed, "Unforgiven" is part of the genre, at all.
  10. Hiro Protagonist is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/06/2010 3:41pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    That said, I find the discussion pretty cool. :smile:

    I tremendously enjoyed High Noon this evening, and given that I will spend the night doing computer work, maybe I have time for a second movie.

    (Currently watching "The Woman in White", as a preparation for an exam on Gothic on Monday. Goodness, Victorian woman are complicated. In Dracula's place, I would also have bitten them, and then hooked up with the hippie girl.)
    Last edited by Hiro Protagonist; 11/06/2010 3:44pm at .
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