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  1. Crushing Step is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/16/2010 10:49pm


     

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I quoted early, I see some digging has already been done.
  2. Crushing Step is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/16/2010 10:56pm


     

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    Quote Originally Posted by Larus marinus View Post
    I see that Mr. Hardy has put up a video in response to this investigation thread, showing us (in resolution sufficient to read) and explaining many of his certificates and qualifications.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-sijj_w-ME
    This "training hall" is the Hampton YMCA.
  3. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/16/2010 10:58pm

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    That's fine because you legitimize his TKD as a witness to his training. You also give us an avenue to look for records for these WTF Champions. Searcher you can't draw that conclusion until, you or someone finds proof of the 4th Dan instructor claim and if he was under their banner as well.

    It is an issue, but not at all a core issue with what is going on with Mr Hardy.
    It is an important issue as it deals with his credentials. It is a core issue because, we are currently picking apart ALL of his styles to determine the amount of bullshido that may exist.
  4. Crushing Step is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/16/2010 11:08pm


     

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    Quote Originally Posted by Larus marinus View Post
    As far as I am aware, the WTF is supposed to have higher standards than, say the ATA - how common is it within this org for students to receive their black belt after less than three years? Would this typically only happen if the person in question was an exceptional student?
    The previous quote, which I don't think was grabbed here, named Brad's teacher Pyung Tuk Ko. "Master Ko" is Brad's teacher, and supposedly former Korean special forces. The man is outright amazing for TKD, but has zero quality control when it comes to dishing out belts. Group testing where judges can't even see all the techniques performed, never mind how badly, and everyone passes. I never saw someone fail a belt test under Ko. I've seen him give WTF 1st dans in only 2 years, never mind 3.

    Makes me feel kinda dirty about my 1st dan. Then again, I didn't go and start my own style as a headmaster.
  5. Larus marinus is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/17/2010 5:45am

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    Quote Originally Posted by searcher66071
    And I can find no mention of who his Godfather trained in Wing Chun with. And I wonder if Mr Hardy's Father's basic judo and boxing skills were just a part of the old Marine training routine? I don't know any Marins from that era that would be able to comment on the H2H training Marines received in the Vietnam era.
    Try WWII era. Which may be even more difficult to get a direct quote on...

    Quote Originally Posted by It is Fake
    That's fine because you legitimize his TKD as a witness to his training. You also give us an avenue to look for records for these WTF Champions. Searcher you can't draw that conclusion until, you or someone finds proof of the 4th Dan instructor claim and if he was under their banner as well.
    If we can get proof of the '4th dan and up=instructor rank in the WTF' issue down in black and white, would it then be a fair statement to say that 'according to the standards of the organization which issued his 1st dan, Mr. Hardy would not be sufficiently qualified to teach TKD'?

    Quote Originally Posted by Crushing Step View Post
    The previous quote, which I don't think was grabbed here, named Brad's teacher Pyung Tuk Ko. "Master Ko" is Brad's teacher, and supposedly former Korean special forces. The man is outright amazing for TKD, but has zero quality control when it comes to dishing out belts. Group testing where judges can't even see all the techniques performed, never mind how badly, and everyone passes. I never saw someone fail a belt test under Ko. I've seen him give WTF 1st dans in only 2 years, never mind 3.

    Makes me feel kinda dirty about my 1st dan. Then again, I didn't go and start my own style as a headmaster.
    Just to repeat the previous MySpace quote:

    I would go on to formally train in Taekwondo under Brad Tinnon of the U.S Taekwondo Center of Master Pyong Tuk Ko. Under Sa Bum Nim Tinnon, I learned WTF Taekwondo and was exposed to Hapkido and Tai Chi in my trainning too. Brad Tinnnon moved on to affiliation with the Action Arts Academy, and I was in his first class of testing black belts, earning my 1st Dan in WTF Taekwondo from him in a mere 2 and a half years opposed to the normal 5 to 6 years.
    According to Hardy, Mr. Tinnon had broken from Master Ko by the time Hardy was awarded his 1st dan. Per http://www.actionarts.us/Aboutus.html - Mr. Tinnon and the Action Arts Academy are still under the WTF banner, however.
  6. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/17/2010 9:04am

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    Quote Originally Posted by Larus marinus View Post

    If we can get proof of the '4th dan and up=instructor rank in the WTF' issue down in black and white, would it then be a fair statement to say that 'according to the standards of the organization which issued his 1st dan, Mr. Hardy would not be sufficiently qualified to teach TKD'?
    That's exactly what I said earlier twice. We need to check the affiliation.

    The best I can find is he shouldn't be teaching as a first degree only assisting. Then again IMO he he tried to bypass that by getting that crappy WUMA TKD Cert. I will post it later but, the USTA (Taekwondo) lists 1st as assistant, 2nd+3rd as instructor, and 4th as master using WTF certification.

    Like I said earlier it goes back to affiliation. I'm still looking so this can be put to bed. This is the last legit, and apparently only, certification he has and once that is gone that is it.

    Edit:

    You need to look for Master Ko and the Us Taekwondo Centers affiliation when he was teaching. He may be playing word games. I fyou look at his other quotes he implies that he got his 1st Dan at the USTC and then Tinnon moved on.
    Last edited by It is Fake; 11/17/2010 9:11am at .
  7. Monad is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/17/2010 10:24am

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    http://www.kukkiwon.or.kr/viewfront/...egulations.jsp

    Article 20 - Gup Promotion Test

    The instructor who holds 4th Dan or higher Dan has a right to test the Gup promotion and issue the Gup certificates by his name for his students. By-laws for Gup promotion test will be made up separately.

    (for those not as familiar with korean terms, gup is analogous to kyu aka color belts)

    So in order to promote, one needs to be a 4th dan or higher.

    Article 6 is also of note. One needs to be 5th dan to test someone for 4th dan and under. So there is the level needed for promoting any type of dan level belt. Has he awarded any black belts?

    The question becomes, can you be an instructor if you can't give out rank?

    I would argue that because Mr. Hardy is awarding rank, he's not on legit ground anyway. If we're splitting hairs that he can teach something due to a questionable low black belt, this is negated by him awarding rank which he clearly would not be allowed to by the rank of that belt.
  8. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/17/2010 2:47pm

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    Thanks for the links that helps. Your explanation only works with him awarding a TKD rank. If he is awarding any ranks it is in his own system and it is a Dojo rank that many posters hold.

    As we have seen, in many threads, people try to fall back on their last legit rank. Actually, that is what he is doing right now. Once we confirm the org's rules, from Mr. Ko's or Brad Tinnon's when he was teaching at the USTC, then he has absolutely nothing to fall back on.

    We have the admission that he didn't formally learn Tai Chi.
    His length of time and Sambo stuff has been hurt as well.
    Pretty much every art he claims is basically dabbling with zero rank earned.

    His longest art is TKD. His 2nd Dan is out of the window because, WUMA was in the UK and awarded anything they wanted form Martial arts to Religion.

    At this point, the TKD should be the main focus. We now see, at best, under almost any WTF link I can find, 1st dan is an assistant instructor under supervision. Also, if a 1st Dan is an instructor it is at a school with at least a 3rd Dan from the links I have seen.
  9. Larus marinus is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/17/2010 7:42pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by Monad View Post
    http://www.kukkiwon.or.kr/viewfront/...egulations.jsp


    Article 6 is also of note. One needs to be 5th dan to test someone for 4th dan and under. So there is the level needed for promoting any type of dan level belt. Has he awarded any black belts?
    From my reading of Article 6, it looks to me as though one needs to be at least a 6th dan in order to test 5th dan and under...

    Sorry to be a pedant, but I thought I should point this out. Unless I'm interpreting it wrong... :idea1:

    Quote Originally Posted by It is Fake View Post
    His longest art is TKD. His 2nd Dan is out of the window because, WUMA was in the UK and awarded anything they wanted form Martial arts to Religion.
    Technically, the TKD 2nd dan was the only thing that WUMA 'awarded' him. Hardy said on his video that he wrote to them with his numerous certs. that had been 'awarded' by the 'The Martial Arts Masters World Federation Inc.' and some details about what he was doing and they then 'recognized' his org and accepted him as an affiliate (seemingly on the face value of the presented paperwork).

    Quote Originally Posted by It is Fake View Post
    At this point, the TKD should be the main focus. We now see, at best, under almost any WTF link I can find, 1st dan is an assistant instructor under supervision. Also, if a 1st Dan is an instructor it is at a school with at least a 3rd Dan from the links I have seen.
    I've emailed the WTF to ask about this issue. If I hear anything definitive back from them, I'll post it here.

    Edit to add this:
    Quote Originally Posted by Crushing Step View Post
    I know Brad personally, and have trained under him. Great guy, very good sports fighter, and he even has a few state level champions in WTF. A majority of his black belts are not worthwhile however.

    "Exposed to" hapkido and tai chi I can also attest to. As much positive I can say for Brad, the "exposure" his students gets to these two style is non-existent. If someone would like I can verify his training with a phone call, but it wouldn't change much.
    Hey, CS - do you reckon that you might be able to persuade Master Tinnon to sign up here and have a chat with us? I know that Searcher has already talked to him via email, but I guess that other people here might have a few other things that they can think of to ask him...
    Last edited by Larus marinus; 11/17/2010 7:50pm at .
  10. Crushing Step is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/17/2010 9:31pm


     

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    Quote Originally Posted by Larus marinus View Post
    Hey, CS - do you reckon that you might be able to persuade Master Tinnon to sign up here and have a chat with us? I know that Searcher has already talked to him via email, but I guess that other people here might have a few other things that they can think of to ask him...

    Since I talked down my opinion of most of Master Tinnon's black belt's... I'd rather not. I do have huge respect for the man, but like a lot of people he is a product of his training. In an earlier post I said Master Ko had low quality control for belt tests, and that is exactly what was passed on.

    They had a strange approach to teaching, I will continue to give insight if it helps. For 75% of the attending students, it was straight McDojo. Student comes in, pays his or her tuition, and helps pay the rent. Then 25% of the students took things seriously. Also if you were in the 25% that gave a ****, you also were treated harsher. For example when certain students were being groomed for competition, they got personal attention above and beyond anyone else. If you placed third in a competition, you were rewarded with hours of harsh physical training.

    This same ratio applied, I **** you not, to black belt level students. I saw a family of five all test for their first dans under Master Ko. Nice people, very nice, but none of them were fighters. So a first dan, even if verified, does not automatically make a good fighter from this school. This is an opinion I have after training with both Master Ko and Master Tinnon for well over the three years this Abraham douche bag claims.

    Fact is if Abraham was a member of the competition team, I could tell by watching his style. I am telling you he was one of the 75% McDojo students.

    I think by Master Tinnon's own words via the quoted email, he states pretty clearly that the hapkido and tai chi exposure was very slight and informal at best. I sincerely mean no disrespect to Master's Ko and Tinnon, I just happen to disagree with how they teach.
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