Standing Gi chokes (Judo)

[MMAMickey]

I was working in randori with a guy today who was all about the defensive posture and forward pressure. Obviously being bent over makes him harder to throw to I took to repeatedly snapping him down to his knees and entering newaza.

However, I was told at the end of the session by a black belt that this is not particularly legal (first question--is this correct?)

I was instead offered the alternative of applying a standing gi choke to effectively stand them up. From there I was told to either submit them or wait until they open up and go for a throw.


So.. the questions:

• Is it correct that the 'snap down' is illegal in shiai?
• Are standing gi chokes a valid method of attack (by this I mean are they actually practical, do they work often etc)
• Are there any glaringly obvious counters that I am likely to be caught with?

Thanks in advance.

[goodlun]

I was under the impression that fighting overly defensively in it self can be penalized.

[MMAMickey]

Yes I am aware of this, but I feel it is better to be able to deal with something than having to rely on the ref to save you.

[Ming Loyalist]

one of the highest ranked black belts in my dojo loves to use standing chokes on people who are a) not attacking or b) who made the mistake of telling him that they wanted to learn as much as possible about chokes (yeah that would be me.)

he doesn't do them much against the advanced guys, but he's told me that he has used them in shiai in the past.

[goodlun]

Yes I am aware of this, but I feel it is better to be able to deal with something than having to rely on the ref to save you.

Very true, my advice would be try it out an randori and see if it works for you. This is one of the best things about Judo the ability to try out things against a resisting opponent. You can also see if someone will drill it with you.

[Muerteds]

You know, I had never thought of using a standing choke to stand up an overly-defensive player. I just went with an obi grab and yoko wakare. But it sounds like a good plan. I have worked on plenty of standing chokes, though.

One of the best entries into any of the cross collar chokes (like gyaku juji jime) I learned at a judo seminar a long time ago. Take your uke in a regular grip, nothing fancy. Now, slide your hand grabbing their elbow up to their collar, as if you were going to apply a kuzushi for something like a seoi nage. Pull them up sharply, again, just like you are trying to break their balance. As the gi comes unseated from the obi and gives you room, slide your dominant hand across into the newly opened collar. Get way back in there. Follow up with your off hand to whatever choke you're trying.

Yes, it works. Yes, they eventually learn to block it, but in the meantime, I reckon they'll have forgotten all about trying to keep their butt so far back. Once they block your choke, throw at your leisure.

[judoka_uk]

I was working in randori with a guy today who was all about the defensive posture and forward pressure. Obviously being bent over makes him harder to throw to I took to repeatedly snapping him down to his knees and entering newaza.

However, I was told at the end of the session by a black belt that this is not particularly legal (first question--is this correct?)

I was instead offered the alternative of applying a standing gi choke to effectively stand them up. From there I was told to either submit them or wait until they open up and go for a throw.


So.. the questions:

• Is it correct that the 'snap down' is illegal in shiai?
• Are standing gi chokes a valid method of attack (by this I mean are they actually practical, do they work often etc)
• Are there any glaringly obvious counters that I am likely to be caught with?

Thanks in advance.

Just pulling someone to their knees with no attempt at a technique or without countering an opponents technique is illegal in Judo IJF rules.

You are allowed to apply standing shime waza techniques, however, you can't apply a standing shimewaza and simultaneously attempt a throw.

Counters are dependent on the techniques you apply and the quality of your Judo and that of your opponents/randori partners. Most of the people who have applied standing shime waza on me have had their grip broken and been subsequently thrown. However, all those who have attempted to apply standing shimewaza on me have been recreational 1st kyus and dan grades.

I'm not a proponent of grip fighting in randori for low grades, however, sometimes people are being purely defensive and just want to not be thrown. In that situation I feel people are entitled to 'turn it on' and grip fight and generally deploy some ugly Judo in order to throw the other person. If this is the situation you're in by all mean dominate the sleeve, rag them around and then throw them hard. The worst offenders are those who retreat so their backs are to the wall when they know you specialise in backwards throwing techniques in this case if they are just purely trying to frustrate your Judo without any attempt at their Judo then I think you're entitled to step it up and throw them into the wall, but that's just me.

[Just Guess]

Could a snap down be considered entry into newaza under these criteria?

"When one contestant takes his opponent down into Newaza by the particularly skilful application of a movement which does not qualify as a throwing technique."
"In any other case where one contestant falls down or is about to fall down, not covered by the preceding sub-sections of this article, the other contestant may take advantage of his opponent's position to go into Newaza."

My understanding is that what your not allowed to do is simply drag someone into newaza in the manner of pulling guard, but a snap down causes uke to lose their balance and fall to their knees.

[Coach Josh]

With the new rule set more than likely the guy who gets snapped down will be DQed if his and even comes up to touch the leg. Before hand I think if you snapped them down then tried to attack in newaza it was a penalty but if you snapped them down and did nothing they got the penalty.

As far as standing gi chokes I do just one from a cross grip since BJJ guys have zero clue about grips when they are standing.

[Conde Koma]

one of my old judo coaches showed me this sick non-crossed collar grip choke once, i'll try and explain it as best i can. basically, you grip as high as you can on the same side collars with your hands (right hand to their left collar, left hand to their right collar). Tug them down like you're dragging them down to newaza (i think this was just to get them to bend over, but it sounds like it should work if they already are), then lift up and turn your hands in sharply, like you're doing that silly double uppercut monkey punch in muay thai. it compresses the hell out of the neck if you do it strong and fast, and should make you want to tap on the spot.