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  1. ChenPengFi is online now
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    Senior Member

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    Posted On:
    10/26/2010 8:08pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Hung Gar, Choy Lay Fut

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by daddykata View Post
    Wow, you can actually *read* his nose up in the air. Yes, this is gratuitous post.
    Bullshit, it was totally in context and i made no assertions based on that event, in fact quite the opposite.


    Misdirection foul. You did not answer the question. Does point shooting preclude the use of sights, yes or no? Seems like you're the person trying to eat his own cake.
    Bullshit, But if we must, no.
    If trained in both, i have a choice.
    If trained in one, i do not, dumbass...

    @wetware - beware, I've had interaction with ChenPengFi before - the troll is strong with this one.
    You've contributed what?
    Opinion? Pedantry? Fallacies?
    Kindly **** off...
  2. Rock Ape is online now
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    Watch and Shoot !

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    Posted On:
    10/26/2010 8:13pm

    staff
     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Everyone..

    CHILL THE **** OUT OR INFRACTIONS START
    "To sin by silence when one should protest makes cowards out of men".

    ~Ella Wheeler
  3. wetware is online now

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    Posted On:
    10/26/2010 9:38pm


     Style: BJJ/MT

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    The original point of the thread was preferred aiming method. Here's a few points and what I use my range time for. This also might go further than the original scope of this thread.

    1) All modern combat pistol training (at least in the US) includes elements of point shooting, even if it focuses on sight shooting, whether you're using an Isosceles stance or a Weaver stance, they both incorporate point shooting as part of the training. That's what they're built for, putting your body in a position where you naturally point at what you're shooting at, as opposed to target shooting, which uses a single arm to aim with. This means that if you're using any kind of modern pistol training you will always be using pointing, at least to a degree.

    2) If you train to quickly acquire a sight picture the distance at which sight shooting is viable drops very fast until it is usable at very close ranges. Call it less than 15 feet at this point.

    3) This is something I probably should have mentioned earlier, but there's another shooting technique that is sort of a hybrid between sight shooting and point shooting. It's called Front Sight Press and it belongs in about the 15 ft to 5 ft range or if someone's coming at you fast enough that you don't think you have time to go to full sights. If you want, I can get more into front sight press later on. At the extreme close range, about 5-8 ft you'll need to do something to create space. Falling to your back and using your feet to maintain space is a common technique.

    4) Closer than that is point shooting territory. Now here's the thing, go from draw and immediately orient your pistol toward the target, keeping the pistol close to your body. When you're doing this, you should continue as if you were going into your full stance. This will do two things, first it'll fine tune your aim for the point shooting, secondly it makes point shooting aim part of your draw phase. The pointing phase looks a lot like the close modified Weaver stance in the CARS video I posted earlier. I picked this up in room clearing training while I was in the Army. So essentially, the motion goes like this, draw, orient, lift, push out.

    5) Practice your draw from wherever your pistol resides. Draw and fire from various ranges, slow at first, then at speed. You will probably have trouble finding a firing range that will allow you to do this. Something you may also want to consider is buying some snap caps to practice this but live rounds are better, but only once you've run it many many times.

    6) Yes, fine motor skill goes away in a life or death situation. This is why I prefer a pistol that has a light single action trigger. This will minimize the effects of jerking the trigger when you fire. A short trigger reset is also useful for rapid fire.

    7) This feeds into my pistol preferences. 1911s and my XD are preferred because the back strap safety makes this whole procedure much safer for me and both carry in a single action mode.

    So I guess the answer is that I train both sighted and point shooting, but the goal is always to get to sighted, point is something that only happens without the time to get to sighted fire.
    Last edited by wetware; 10/26/2010 9:45pm at .
  4. goodlun is online now
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    Posted On:
    10/26/2010 11:03pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Thank you wetware that was very informative and interesting
  5. Cassius is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/27/2010 12:08am

    supporting memberforum leader
     Style: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    We're trained to start firing as soon as the pistol comes to chest level from the holster. So that would be point shooting. As you do this, you're transitioning to a regular shooting stance aiming with the sights. We train wearing body armor, so modified isosceles is really heavily favored. Dropping to one knee is also highly recommended if pushing aggressively through your target is not an option. Also, the standard minimum number of rounds I've always been taught for a handgun is two controlled pairs. So four rounds per target.

    To paraphrase one of the best shooters I've ever worked with: Every famous shooter has their favored stance and style that they swear they've determined objectively to be the best. Sometimes they get so wrapped up in optimizing their shooting that they miss the forest for the trees. If your rounds are hitting the target, you're doing it right. There's nothing wrong with trying to be perfect. Just don't lose sight of what you're doing.
    "No. Listen to me because I know what I'm talking about here." -- Hannibal
  6. toyamabarnard is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/27/2010 6:40am


     Style: BJJ, MT, MMA n00b

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Cassius explained that much better than I had originally. Of course now we're adding in the variables of open carry in a retention holster vs. concealed carry.

    I also wanted to add the point that my reply was based on experienced shooters in cq situations and the assumption that the shooter is familiar with the hand gun and deadly force situations.

    I've been shooting handguns, shotguns and rifles since I was 12 and carrying a handgun since I was 19. From '96-'01 that was a Sig 226 9mm, from '01-'04 it was a Glock 22. Since I left LE in '04 through today my EDC is a Glock 23. 90% of the time this is done OWB at 3:00. Same gun, same place, same holster. If I transition to IWB, same gun almost same place different holster. Unless I'm attending an OC event I'm carrying concealed. Unless I'm at a bar, training or for some reason going to a pistol free zone, I'm armed. 70% of the time I carry a BUG, but that's another story.

    I practice getting to my gun, drawing it and firing it how I carry, and retention, from all the holsters I own for reasons that should be obvious. I also go to the local range and shoot from the bench, where I do indeed use sight shooting.

    I'm not advocating changing training for personal protection in the home classes or any other basic course. And I sure as hell don't advocate taking an 8 hour course and putting 100 rounds down range and thinking you're good to go carrying a gun for self defense. People who have never handled a gun before need to get safety then the fundamentals down. I learned how to shoot using sights way before point shooting.

    Thankfully I've never had to fire at a person. The guys I know that did were focused on the threat, not the sights. Did they take the fraction of a second to note the front sight? maybe. Most don't even remember drawing or firing, their gun was just in their hand when the guy was down.

    As a regular guy on the streets I can expect a deadly force encounter to be up close and personal, fast and dirty. I'm content that I may hit a hip shot while bringing my firearm up to face, I'm content I may hit a gut shot while pushing an assailant away, I'm content that I may not get a shot off if I can find something to hide behind.

    The question was "preferred" method. I have reasons for my preference others have their own. I also make no claims of marksmanship, or being better than anyone else. If your going to carry a firearm train well and train often.
  7. submessenger is offline
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    Transmaniacon MC

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    Posted On:
    10/27/2010 8:14am

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     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Scrapper View Post
    I smell an article.

    I may need help sifting through training manuals and incident reports though. there is a lot of data to go through here.

    I need to devise an experiment, too.

    I'll write it if you guys help with the legwork.
    I'm down - direct me, oh great armed one.
  8. Scrapper is offline
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    Fear and bullets.

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    Posted On:
    10/27/2010 10:00am

    staff
     Style: MMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I need links.

    Every article you can find that addresses this.

    Furthermore...we need to develop an experiment to test this. I have access to an outdoor private range, so we can do it there. then I will need Bullies to run the experiment.

    That's for starters.
    And lo, Kano looked down upon the field and saw the multitudes. Amongst them were the disciples of Uesheba who were greatly vexed at his sayings. And Kano spake: "Do not be concerned with the mote in thy neighbor's eye, when verily thou hast a massive stick in thine ass".

    --Scrolls of Bujutsu: Chapter 5 vs 10-14.
  9. submessenger is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/27/2010 11:56am

    supporting member
     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Here's a dump. So far, it's a little heavy on LEO (since that's where statistics and studies are done) and point shooting (because these guys are evangelists). There's not as much Internet stuff as I was hoping for, it's looking like a trip to an actual library may be in order, but I'll keeping working the 'net for now.

    John Veit (the pointshooting.com guy):
    http://firearmusernetwork.com/2008/0...oting-debates/
    http://firearmusernetwork.com/2009/0...g-rand-report/
    http://firearmusernetwork.com/2009/0...ining-problem/
    http://firearmusernetwork.com/2009/0...ers-gunfights/

    John Veit on other boards with his evangelism: http://www.utahconcealedcarry.com/vi...st=0&sk=t&sd=a
    5shot is a username he uses frequently. Seen on at least 3 other forums, now, all seem to be copies of articles from pointshooting.com, so I'm just ignoring those for now.

    Veit uses "On Killing," and other Lt Col Dave Grossman works as evidence that sight shooting sucks:
    http://www.pointshooting.com/ssfails2.htm
    http://www.pointshooting.com/ssfails.htm

    Aveni does a pretty thorough trashing of Grossman:
    http://www.theppsc.org/Grossman/Main-R.htm
    Grossman based his analysis on biased data: http://www.theppsc.org/Grossman/SLA_...iring-Data.htm
    http://www.theppsc.org/Grossman/SLA_Marshall/Main.htm

    This may be link farms for more info - need time to go through them:
    epic thread: BlackwaterUSA Chimes in on Point vs Sight shooting - TheFiringLine Forums
    interesting that blackwater instructor is against the point shooting, taking a position based on the 80% miss rate
    less epic thread: http://www.thehighroad.us/showthread...ykes+applegate

    Other point shooters:
    http://www.spw-duf.info/point.html a convert to and evangelist for point shooting Applegate method
    http://www.bobtuley.com/pointshooting.htm another evangelist

    Other stuff:
    Not sure where this guy stands - seems like he's on the sight side: http://www.outdoors.net/site/feature...=&curpage=3724

    Reports / data:
    http://go2.wordpress.com/?id=725X134...rand-report%2F - the 2009 RAND report for NYPD

    SOP-9 is apparently an annual NYPD report, not just a purposed study - we should be able to find it for other years: http://www.theppsc.org/Grossman/SOP9/2000.htm
    ...or not: http://www.theppsc.org/Grossman/Main-R.htm suggests that SOP-9 is now semi-secret

    injury / death stats from cdc: http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm4845a1.htm
    http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/ss5002a1.htm

    BJS info: http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/index.cfm?ty=tp&tid=43
    in particular: http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/index.cfm?ty=pbdetail&iid=938

    for actual discharge of firearm stats, have to go to individual departments, it seems, such as SOP-9:
    http://www.dccrimepolicy.org/researc...ics.cfm?page=5
  10. Scrapper is offline
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    Fear and bullets.

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    Posted On:
    10/27/2010 1:01pm

    staff
     Style: MMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    That's a hell of a start!!
    And lo, Kano looked down upon the field and saw the multitudes. Amongst them were the disciples of Uesheba who were greatly vexed at his sayings. And Kano spake: "Do not be concerned with the mote in thy neighbor's eye, when verily thou hast a massive stick in thine ass".

    --Scrolls of Bujutsu: Chapter 5 vs 10-14.
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