225044 Bullies, 3895 online  
  • Register
Our Sponsors:

Results 31 to 40 of 141
Page 4 of 15 FirstFirst 1234 567814 ... LastLast
Sponsored Links Spacer Image
  1. wetware is online now

    Senior Member

    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Lafayette, IN
    Posts
    1,129

    Posted On:
    10/26/2010 11:50am


     Style: BJJ/MT

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by goodlun View Post
    While it doesn't mean it doesn't exist I have yet to find any actual evidence that point shooting is any more dangerous for bystanders than sight shooting. The test that Applegate did that showed point shooting to be more accurate would make me think the opposite is quite more likely true.
    Again, I'd like to see a further definition of target shooting training in the documents provided. Every modern shooting stance uses elements of what the FAS system includes. I could be wrong, but I believe what's referenced in the FAS stuff and others as 'target shooting training' is pictured below and is unsuitable for modern combat. Dueling with single shot pistols? Fine. Today's high-capacity centerfire pistols? Not a chance.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

Name:	82374322.jpg 
Views:	80 
Size:	30.4 KB 
ID:	11370  

  2. ChenPengFi is online now
    ChenPengFi's Avatar

    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Hawai'i
    Posts
    3,234

    Posted On:
    10/26/2010 1:05pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Hung Gar, Choy Lay Fut

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by daddykata View Post
    Sure, I browsed most of that site, yesterday, and my thoughts are these:
    1) it's a site that sells ebooks on point shooting
    Circumstantial ad hominem, the research quoted was unaffiliated with the site.

    2) the author advocates point shooting as a close quarters technique only, not as a universal aiming method
    Absolutely. The point of using sights during proactive measures was also mentioned.

    3) I'd be interested to review the 900+ videos this guy claims to have studied, and the cases, too. On average, how many rounds were expended? How much collateral damage was done? How many people not involved in the gunfight were killed or injured?
    Are you disputing the findings?
    If you have some sources you'd like to share i'd be happy to take a read.

    4) To summarize the "science," of point shooting: stress situation means that you're unable to perform "complex motor skills," so you should train to rely on your instinctive ability to point your finger as a life-saving maneuver. Try this: go home, tape a piece of paper on the wall and tape a laser pointer to your index finger. Move around the room and suddenly point at the paper. Don't cheat. Did you hit it? How many misses? How long does it take you to get 3 hits? If you think you performed well enough at this unstressed exercise to make point shooting your primary self-defense aiming method, good on you. I'll stick to using my sights.
    You are missing the point big time.
    Anything more complex is simply that, more complex.
    The more complex task will be affected in a greater way by stress and exertion.
    We used both in class and the point shooting has much merit in cq imo.


    5) The author states that 80% of bullets fired in real scenarios do not hit their target while simultaneously claiming that you can be more effective by not using a gun's sights, as evidenced by all of the real scenarios (you know, the ones where 80% of bullets don't hit the target).
    I think you are trying to have your cake and eat it too.
    The evidence showed that people do not use their sights under stress.
    Do you think it makes sense to train a technique you will likely never use, and further to ignore one you are almost guaranteed to rely on?

    100% of the work you would do to properly point shoot is 99% of the work you would do to properly sight shoot. It takes a split second to look at your sights and adjust if necessary - if that's too much time, you 're probably dead or injured regardless of how you choose to aim (or no to aim) your gun. But, if you spend that time, you may prevent yourself from being dead or injured because you stopped your opponent with properly placed rounds.
    I disagree and the evidence seems to as well.
    The authors quoted asserted that despite your training you will point shoot in cq when it comes down to the wire.
    Makes sense to me to train this way then...

    You also fail to address the smaller profile afforded by certain point-shooting styles.
    This was touted as a weapon retention and flow benefit in the class i took.

    Do you have anything to add other than opinion and unsupported assertions?
  3. Permalost is offline
    Permalost's Avatar

    pro nonsense self defense

    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    San Diego
    Posts
    12,555

    Posted On:
    10/26/2010 1:15pm

    supporting member
     Style: FMA, dumbek, Indian clubs

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by ChenPengFi View Post
    I think you are trying to have your cake and eat it too.
    The evidence showed that people do not use their sights under stress.
    Do you think it makes sense to train a technique you will likely never use, and further to ignore one you are almost guaranteed to rely on?
    Sighted fire is still something that is used at a greater distance, so training that way is at least useful for that.
  4. goodlun is online now
    goodlun's Avatar

    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Ramona
    Posts
    5,123

    Posted On:
    10/26/2010 1:19pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by CodosDePiedra View Post
    Sighted fire is still something that is used at a greater distance, so training that way is at least useful for that.
    True but the original topic at least was about pistol shooting and while one can make make distant shots with them its not really what they are for.
  5. ChenPengFi is online now
    ChenPengFi's Avatar

    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Hawai'i
    Posts
    3,234

    Posted On:
    10/26/2010 1:27pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Hung Gar, Choy Lay Fut

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Yes, in class the topic was only advocated for cq interior work.
    I'm obviously still gonna use the sights at a distance.
    The author even advocated the sights when proactive rather than defensive, ie i'm gonna shoot you and you don't know it or don't see me etc.
    edit: The other point made is that if you are gonna get shot, it is much more likely to be at close range and therefore most of your training should reflect that.
  6. goodlun is online now
    goodlun's Avatar

    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Ramona
    Posts
    5,123

    Posted On:
    10/26/2010 1:32pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    What I would like to see is some evidence to the fact that sight shooting is better as opposed to just statements. Show us a study lets debate this with facts and a methodology I would really like to know in the end what actually does work better.
  7. ChenPengFi is online now
    ChenPengFi's Avatar

    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Hawai'i
    Posts
    3,234

    Posted On:
    10/26/2010 1:35pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Hung Gar, Choy Lay Fut

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Simio de las Rocas View Post
    Hands up from those of you who train to shoot their first two rounds in to the pelvic region of their targets ?

    If you're left wondering why the pelvic region, think about where your ability to stand, crawl or generally move about comes from.

    My tip of the day:

    1. life saver - step off the line, drop to your knee as you present
    2. double tap to the pelvic region - both eyes open
    3. Choose to maintain the engagement or disengage - whichever is appropriate
    Nice and raised hand.
    I was also told that since at this point i still kinda suck, the pelvis is good because the second round will likely end up higher anyhow.
  8. ChenPengFi is online now
    ChenPengFi's Avatar

    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Hawai'i
    Posts
    3,234

    Posted On:
    10/26/2010 1:36pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Hung Gar, Choy Lay Fut

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by goodlun View Post
    What I would like to see is some evidence to the fact that sight shooting is better as opposed to just statements. Show us a study lets debate this with facts and a methodology I would really like to know in the end what actually does work better.
    Exactly, i have no dog in this fight.
    "Just the facts ma'am..."
  9. Scrapper is offline
    Scrapper's Avatar

    Fear and bullets.

    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    Dayville, Connecticut, United States
    Posts
    4,286

    Posted On:
    10/26/2010 1:49pm

    staff
     Style: MMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I smell an article.

    I may need help sifting through training manuals and incident reports though. there is a lot of data to go through here.

    I need to devise an experiment, too.

    I'll write it if you guys help with the legwork.
    And lo, Kano looked down upon the field and saw the multitudes. Amongst them were the disciples of Uesheba who were greatly vexed at his sayings. And Kano spake: "Do not be concerned with the mote in thy neighbor's eye, when verily thou hast a massive stick in thine ass".

    --Scrolls of Bujutsu: Chapter 5 vs 10-14.
  10. ChenPengFi is online now
    ChenPengFi's Avatar

    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Hawai'i
    Posts
    3,234

    Posted On:
    10/26/2010 1:52pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Hung Gar, Choy Lay Fut

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Sure, be glad to help.
Page 4 of 15 FirstFirst 1234 567814 ... LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Powered by vBulletin™© contact@vbulletin.com vBulletin Solutions, Inc. 2011 All rights reserved.