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  1. searcher66071 is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/25/2010 4:20pm


     Style: Karate-knockdown, BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I teach focusing on the front sight, as does every NRA Certified Instructor, NRA Training Councelor that I have trained with. I have also had this method of shooting drilled into me by every defensive shooting instructor I have been trained by and by all USPSA shooting instructors I have had. For defensive tactics, we teach center mass shooting and that if you are focused on a small target, you will be too slow if you are trying to shoot small groups.

    I do not teach point shooting as there is to high of a risk of missing and hitting a bystander or other innocent in the process.
  2. mad_malk is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/25/2010 4:26pm


     Style: Krav Maga/ Judo noob

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Alight the sights on the target aim for a small area focus on the front sight and squeeze the trigger. both eyes open if the target is with in 25 feet. close non dominant eye if the target is farther back.

    Make sure you have quality sights.
  3. submessenger is online now
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    Transmaniacon MC

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    Posted On:
    10/25/2010 4:45pm

    supporting member
     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by goodlun View Post
    What I do know is that it seems that at a close range and under a certain amount of stress I can see how relying on muscle memory... makes a certain amount of sense.
    Muscle memory is a dangerous concept when it comes to life or death situations. Consider that common roadside sobriety tests (stand on one leg, tilt your head back, close your eyes, and bring your finger to your nose) are basically examinations of your "muscle memory." Would you rather that your "muscle memory," help you aim the firearm properly, or work on just pointing the firearm in the general direction of your target?

    Another way to ask the question is this - full worst-case assumption mode engaged - in a stress situation, you probably will not perform as well as your worst training session; would you rather that you miss your center-mass target by a few inches, or by a few people?

    In any situation where it's important enough for you to pull the trigger of a firearm to effectively end somebody's life, it is worth it to take the fraction of a second to aim the shot.
    Last edited by submessenger; 10/25/2010 4:46pm at . Reason: removed extraneous "be would "
  4. goodlun is online now
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    Posted On:
    10/25/2010 4:54pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by daddykata View Post

    In any situation where it's important enough for you to pull the trigger of a firearm to effectively end somebody's life, it is worth it to take the fraction of a second to aim the shot.
    Fair enough, and I am not disagreeing with you so much as exploring the other side. Especially when you have things like this
    quoted from the point shooting wiki
    Applegate's training innovations was the use of particularly intense combat firing ranges, which he called the "House of Horrors". A cross between an obstacle course, a haunted house, and a shooting range, it used a three dimensional layout with stairs and tunnels, pop-up targets, deliberately poor lighting, psychologically disturbing sounds, simulated cobwebs and bodies, and blank cartridges being fired towards the shooter. The range was designed to have the greatest possible psychological impact on the shooter, to simulate the stress of combat as much as possible, and no targets were presented at distances of greater than 10 feet from the shooter. Applegate also used his "House of Horrors" as a test of the point shooting training. 500 men were run through the House of Horrors after standard target pistol training, and then again (with modifications in the layout) after training in point shooting. The average number of hits in the first group was 4 out of 12 targets hit (with two shots per target). After point shooting, the average jumped to 10 of 12 targets hit. Further shooters trained only in point shooting, including those who had never fired a handgun before receiving point shooting training,
  5. ChenPengFi is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/25/2010 5:06pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Hung Gar, Choy Lay Fut

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    DK, do you have any thoughts on articles like this one?
    http://www.pointshooting.com/1afails.htm
    With the heart rate increase, fine and complex motor skills will initially increase in effectiveness, but only up to a point. And once that point is reached, they will deteriorate rapidly until they are lost to use.

    For example the motor skills needed for Sight Shooting will improve until the heart rate reaches about 110 BPM, then they will rapidly deteriorate and be lost to use when the heart rate reaches about 130 BPM.

    And as will be detailed below, the heart rate will at a minimum, go over 145 BPM in a real close quarters life and death situation.

    As such, the fine motor skills that are needed for Sight Shooting will be lost to use.
    This seems to ring true, imo.
  6. Permalost is offline
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    pro nonsense self defense

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    Posted On:
    10/25/2010 5:08pm

    supporting member
     Style: FMA, dumbek, Indian clubs

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by goodlun View Post
    Applegate also used his "House of Horrors" as a test of the point shooting training. 500 men were run through the House of Horrors after standard target pistol training, and then again (with modifications in the layout) after training in point shooting. The average number of hits in the first group was 4 out of 12 targets hit (with two shots per target). After point shooting, the average jumped to 10 of 12 targets hit. Further shooters trained only in point shooting, including those who had never fired a handgun before receiving point shooting training,
    Seems like the numbers might be better the second time just because they’ve already run through the course once. I think to account for that they should have had a large number of people go through it twice without receiving any additional training in between and noting the results each time, but I think that it was less of a real experiment and more of a training period for a bunch of new guys so it would really slow the training to do it that way.
  7. wetware is online now

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    Posted On:
    10/25/2010 5:11pm


     Style: BJJ/MT

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I don't see why anyone would ever use 'intuitive shooting' when they had a choice. If you've actually PAID someone to teach you something that's supposed to be intuitive, please punch yourself in the dick until you can no longer breed. (Although I admit the Quick Kill stuff was fairly interesting.)

    That being said, if you use the sights and practice, then practice and after that practice some more you eventually start getting good sight picture in a fraction of the time it used to take you. Pretty soon you start to raise the pistol into your line of sight off the draw. And hey, guess what? It's sighted in.
  8. goodlun is online now
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    Posted On:
    10/25/2010 5:47pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by CodosDePiedra View Post
    Seems like the numbers might be better the second time just because they’ve already run through the course once. I think to account for that they should have had a large number of people go through it twice without receiving any additional training in between and noting the results each time, but I think that it was less of a real experiment and more of a training period for a bunch of new guys so it would really slow the training to do it that way.
    When I 1st read it I thought the same thing but apparently I missed a little bit
    Further shooters trained only in point shooting, including those who had never fired a handgun before receiving point shooting training, maintained the high average established by the first group (FMFRP 12-80, p. 286).
    This seems to indicate it was not so much a matter of a 2nd time through as this group was able to maintain the same sort of average.
  9. Rock Ape is offline
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    Watch and Shoot !

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    Posted On:
    10/25/2010 6:17pm

    staff
     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Hands up from those of you who train to shoot their first two rounds in to the pelvic region of their targets ?

    If you're left wondering why the pelvic region, think about where your ability to stand, crawl or generally move about comes from.

    My tip of the day:

    1. life saver - step off the line, drop to your knee as you present
    2. double tap to the pelvic region - both eyes open
    3. Choose to maintain the engagement or disengage - whichever is appropriate
    "To sin by silence when one should protest makes cowards out of men".

    ~Ella Wheeler
  10. wetware is online now

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    Posted On:
    10/25/2010 6:32pm


     Style: BJJ/MT

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Simio de las Rocas View Post
    Hands up from those of you who train to shoot their first two rounds in to the pelvic region of their targets ?

    If you're left wondering why the pelvic region, think about where your ability to stand, crawl or generally move about comes from.
    And is not protected by most forms of body armor. I don't do it first two, but my failure drills go two torso then one pelvis, two torso then one head. The pelvis shot certainly would certainly make the Nike technique work better.

    @Point shooting:
    I would imagine 'Target Shooting Training' consists of gun hand forward, side toward target rather than any kind of shooting training any of us has received.
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