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  1. #131

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    Quote Originally Posted by Team Python View Post
    Steel plates don't shoot back so there is not stress on the body. The body reacts different when it is under stress. There is a good book on it written by Rob Pincus that gets in detail on the subject. The book is called Combat Focus Shooting I recommend everybody read it.
    Mr. Pincus is a nice guy and very intelligent. I place is his research and studies right up there with the UN's global warming study.

  2. #132
    Robstafarian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Team Python View Post
    Steel plates don't shoot back so there is not stress on the body. The body reacts different when it is under stress.
    I was put under some very serious stress a few weeks ago, and I was shocked to discover I could barely feel my arms; there's no way I would've shot as well under those circumstances.

  3. #133

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    Quote Originally Posted by mad_malk View Post
    Mr. Pincus is a nice guy and very intelligent. I place is his research and studies right up there with the UN's global warming study.
    Well everybody has their own opinions........I tend to think that most people won't use sights when they are being shot at. There is no way to train for it either.....so why not train the way the body is going to react when being shot at. I have seen a lot of videos of police shootings and I don't recall anyone gettting in a weaver stance and aiming at the suspect.

    I have a good friend that shot and killed a suspect coming out a Big 5 store. This guy is a former Marine who was in Force Recon and he said he did not aim when he shot and killed the suspect. He said he just got in a low stance and fired several shots until the suspect went down. Now this is a guy that probably has more gun training than you or I and yet he did not shoot the way he was trained to.

    I don't know your background or how many shootings you been in but like I said everybody has their own opinion and you can believe what you ever you want. However you are not going to convince me other wise.

    I will stick to combat point shooting and when I get in a shooting I will let you know ASAP how it went. Maybe when someone designs a target that shoots back you can test your theory out and see if it works. In the video below I shoot 10 feet from the target using no sights. I think I hit the target 9 or 10 times. Don't get me wrong I do use sights too but at a longer distance or if I can take cover behind a solid object like a wall or vehicle.

    YouTube - Israeli Instinctive Combat Shooting
    Last edited by Team Python; 1/03/2011 1:48am at .

  4. #134

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    Quote Originally Posted by Team Python View Post
    Well everybody has their own opinions........I tend to think that most people won't use sights when they are being shot at. There is no way to train for it either.....so why not train the way the body is going to react when being shot at. I have seen a lot of videos of police shootings and I don't recall anyone gettting in a weaver stance and aiming at the suspect.

    I have a good friend that shot and killed a suspect coming out a Big 5 store. This guy is a former Marine who was in Force Recon and he said he did not aim when he shot and killed the suspect. He said he just got in a low stance and fired several shots until the suspect went down. Now this is a guy that probably has more gun training than you or I and yet he did not shoot the way he was trained to.

    I don't know your background or how many shootings you been in but like I said everybody has their own opinion and you can believe what you ever you want. However you are not going to convince me other wise.

    I will stick to combat point shooting and when I get in a shooting I will let you know ASAP how it went. Maybe when someone designs a target that shoots back you can test your theory out and see if it works. In the video below I shoot 10 feet from the target using no sights. I think I hit the target 9 or 10 times. Don't get me wrong I do use sights too but at a longer distance or if I can take cover behind a solid object like a wall or vehicle.

    YouTube - Israeli Instinctive Combat Shooting
    Must be nice to know so much and have read so little. Yes i work off of opinion and believe what i want that's it. Err no wait I work off the fact that I learn from people who Have repeatably put bad guys in the ground and then turned around and trained others to do the same. These people then have investigated the shootings of those they have trained and released the results of what they have learned. If you care there is a post about 3 or 4 pages back were i posted One such persons response to the questions i asked regarding this thread.

    I honestly stopped caring if i can convince people of anything. I will stick to something that has repeatly been proven with a high rate of success and hit's on target in the real world. Point shooting is great up close at retention distance or if you can put hundreds of rounds down range every week. Other wise i will stick to flash front sight for up close and more complete sight picture as the distance increases.

    Were did you ever come up with me being a proponent of the weaver stance? Is it like supposed to be the only stance for shooting with a sight picture? I bet you think eye witnesses are never wrong too(since were just making **** up now).

    See i can quote and not address the post directly. GIGO.
    Last edited by mad_malk; 1/04/2011 4:50am at .

  5. #135
    Wounded Ronin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Team Python View Post
    Steel plates don't shoot back so there is not stress on the body. The body reacts different when it is under stress. There is a good book on it written by Rob Pincus that gets in detail on the subject. The book is called Combat Focus Shooting I recommend everybody read it.
    That's why I'm really interested to see what happens when I go do simunitions training.

    I do feel a certain amount of stress when shooting plates due to time pressure and competiton anxiety. To the point that when I started with competitive shooting I used to miss all kinds of shots I could have easily made outside of competition. In the very beginning I did A LOT worse.

    So, shooting steel puts MY body under stress, and has in the past demonstably undermined many aspects of my shooting. The solution was just to dry fire until I got really solid muscle memory.
    Best Vietnam War music video I've ever seen put together by a vet: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oDY8raKsdfg

  6. #136

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wounded Ronin View Post
    That's why I'm really interested to see what happens when I go do simunitions training.

    I do feel a certain amount of stress when shooting plates due to time pressure and competiton anxiety. To the point that when I started with competitive shooting I used to miss all kinds of shots I could have easily made outside of competition. In the very beginning I did A LOT worse.

    So, shooting steel puts MY body under stress, and has in the past demonstably undermined many aspects of my shooting. The solution was just to dry fire until I got really solid muscle memory.
    Simunitions is good but they are costly....a lot of people are going to Airsoft. They say they hurt worse than simunitions but I don't know I have never tried Airsoft. These two methods are the closes you can get to a real shoot out so I think they would be beneficial. Let me know how it goes.

    I myself do a lot of dry fire in my back yard. I work on my stance and proper grip of the weapon. I also practice condition 3 charging (loading) of the weapon.
    Last edited by Team Python; 1/04/2011 4:21pm at .

  7. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by mad_malk View Post
    Bowling pins are of a very close shape to the key vital areas of a human. If you can hit one of those in 2-4 shots off of a draw then you are put rounds in the lungs,heart, throat and brain. Just like people sometimes they stay standing even after they have been hit. So there a very good reactive target to test your shooting on.

    Force on force is only as good as the skill level of your opponent.:violent1:
    Force on force is a good proving ground for concepts and technique. It needs to be structured and goal oriented, otherwise it turns into a hose-fest.

    Like I posted previously, point shooting, alternative sighting methods, and sighted fire all have a place. It depends on the situation you find yourself in. Is it 0-5 feet? 5 to 15 yards? Is there cover? Are there multiple attackers? Is your kid and or wife with you? What's your state of mind? Situations can be infinitely variable. Why limit yourself to just one or two ways of doing things?

  8. #138
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    As far as steel plates and bowling pins with timers and competion. It's all good stuff, but dynamic sim/force on force pits you againt living, breathing, thinking adversaries, to find out if your pet theories and training methods have any merit.

  9. #139
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    I think that the "people wont look at their sights" meme is an unproven. "People don't remember if they looked at their sights" may be closer to the truth.

    There is a school of thought that red-dot optics on carbines have the advantage of being in the field of view during combat and MAY be used under stress even if the conscious mind is unaware of it.

  10. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by Team Python View Post
    Simunitions is good but they are costly....a lot of people are going to Airsoft. They say they hurt worse than simunitions but I don't know I have never tried Airsoft. These two methods are the closes you can get to a real shoot out so I think they would be beneficial. Let me know how it goes.

    I myself do a lot of dry fire in my back yard. I work on my stance and proper grip of the weapon. I also practice condition 3 charging (loading) of the weapon.
    Simunition will sting far more than airsoft. Thats been my experience at least.

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