Hatenkai Aikido

**Larus marinus** · Posted On: 10/26/2010 5:33pm

Originally Posted by CodosDePiedra

I actually feel kinda bad for the ridicule groups like this get (yes, I am responsible for this too and I don’t feel great about that). They try to apply what they’ve been practicing with resistance, and not only do the judokas/kickboxers/wrestlers etc ridicule them, but also the traditional groups are quick to distance themselves from them too because it’s sloppy and doesn’t look like mainstream aikido, even though those same traditionalists never test their art like that.

Do the Japanese traditionalists have a specific derisive term to refer to the martial sports, in all their effective-in-competitions-with-rules-only glory, as a matter of interest?

**Permalost** · Posted On: 10/26/2010 5:43pm

Originally Posted by Larus marinus

Do the Japanese traditionalists have a specific derisive term to refer to the martial sports, in all their effective-in-competitions-with-rules-only glory, as a matter of interest?

I don't know, probably. The Japanese as a whole seem to love combat sports though. Non-fighting traditionalist superiority complex isn't a Japanese thing though. I’ve seen it personally in the Chinese and Filipino arts as well.

**goodlun** · Posted On: 10/26/2010 5:44pm

Originally Posted by maofas

You know, instead of always mindlessly towing the Bullshido party line, try thinking just a little bit outside the box and ask yourself what these sort of techniques are for and if they might fulfill a different role than Judo and BJJ.

Do I think this is great or something? No, these guys wouldn't even be in my top 20 choices of people to train with if I went to Japan and Aikido is something I'm pretty uninterested in for now, but it doesn't mean this is nothing but Judo-that's-worse-than-real-Judo either.

I suppose the problem I am having with this is it appears that they are trying to get the same end results as Judo but with out being nearly as effective at it.

**DCS** · Posted On: 10/26/2010 5:47pm

Originally Posted by Larus marinus

Do the Japanese traditionalists have a specific derisive term to refer to the martial sports, in all their effective-in-competitions-with-rules-only glory, as a matter of interest?

Combat Sports = Kakutogi (格闘技), but is not especially derisive. Ask Simio, maybe he knows.

**Rock Ape** · Posted On: 10/26/2010 8:04pm

Originally Posted by DCS

Combat Sports = Kakutogi (格闘技), but is not especially derisive. Ask Simio, maybe he knows.

Not really, you'd just use any form of general insult or term which might fit.

**maofas** · Posted On: 10/26/2010 8:38pm

Originally Posted by goodlun

I suppose the problem I am having with this is it appears that they are trying to get the same end results as Judo but with out being nearly as effective at it.

I said this once before in a thread about these guys. I think wrist locks are often for weapon disarming or retaining when the weapon isn't yet 100% in play. If I were just having a vanilla unarmed 1v1 fight there's no reason to opt for a wristlock when I can do a throw that has a more solid connection point.

If, however, you're having a fistfight with someone, it starts turning sour for them and he pull a knife, pouncing on them and controlling the weapon hand before he's done drawing it is a good idea and a good opportunity to use your wristlocky ****. I think that sort of situation, however niche, is what this type of sparring could good practice for.

Furthermore, I think these guys deserve some props not just for sparring in an art that doesn't usually spar, but also sparring with a technique that is genuinely very difficult to spar with. A wristlock has to get put on pretty quick or the opponent squirms out of it, but if you put it on too fast you're going to snap your partner's wrist. Similarly if you resist too much/for too long you'll eventually wind up getting your wrist snapped (people forget to go with a foregone conclusion throw in Judo all the time, and sometimes get hurt, but usually walk away unscathed), but if you go with it too much now you're back to non-compliant Aikido. What they're doing may not be all that, but it's also genuinely difficult to do IMO.

Lastly, Judo is an Olympic Sport that's had a couple of hundred years of competition and hundreds of thousands of competitors across the world helping to refine techniques. You can't expect a one-off Aikido varient to pop into existence with an equal level of sophistication of technique.

**goodlun** · Posted On: 10/26/2010 8:45pm

Like I said before I do respect them for trying. My point is I think I understand why more schools don't. It really shows as you put it how difficult the techniques they are using really are and thus may not actually be ideal to learn. IF your doing Aikido for self defense reasons this should bring home the point that it may not be all that effective. Better for the school to keep the illusion.

**maofas** · Posted On: 10/27/2010 9:17am

Well, you're cherry picking the part that suits you. I do think there's value in the techniques, but it's a niche value.

I don't think everyone in the world should be homogenized into doing BJJ, Wrestling, Judo, Boxing, and MT. I would rather have a wide variety of MAs, even if some aren't as all-around useful, because it leaves a wider array of techniques floating around for people to borrow from.

Personally, wristlocks are not a priority for me, but I'm glad someone else is out there working on them in a realistic way in case I ever want to learn more about them or if they stumble onto something else I find useful.

**goodlun** · Posted On: 10/27/2010 10:21am

You do know Judo schools that teach the full art do also teach wrist locks. I am not begrudging these people for doing something different heck I am all for that. I am not making for of the people just the technique which is painfully obvious when you do try it with a resiting opponent you end up with well what was shown. I really do applaud them for trying it this way and if they are going to continue to train in it I hope they keep trying it this way.