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  1. judoka_uk is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/24/2010 8:39am

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     Style: Judo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Coach Josh View Post
    I think its a matter of personal preference rather than actual proper method. IF you do it one way and someone does it another and you both get the same result is it wrong?

    As a coach I do not like it because of the false sense of speed and power it gives to the beginning practitioner. I am more interested in developing proper technique in my students then anything else. If and when they reach a level of technical proficiency that they can go train with elite level coaches then they can recommend doing uchi komis that way.

    I believe that if they can generate good foot speed from a dead stop without relying on the windup then if they choose to us it later on they could be faster. I catch myself doing the wind up when I am doing speed uchi komi sets and try to stop but it just feels natural.
    Probably should have realised this would be slightly controversial and used more tempered language.

    If you try and discourage this method of developing hip power what alternatives do you use? Or do you not see it as a method of developing hip power?

    As far as speed goes I always make people start of doing smooth slow uchikomi because then they can concentrate on getting good tsurkiomi often poor tusrikomi is a result of trying to go too fast and sacrificing good technique. Once people are proficient then I get them to do fast uchikomi, three man uchikomi etc... However, I introduce the hip power thing whilst still in the smooth and steady stage because you can concentrate better on using your hips and lower body to generate power whilst going smooth and slow and still get good repetitions in.
  2. theotherserge is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/24/2010 6:13pm

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     Style: sambo/crossfit

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    It's away of understanding how power is "handed-off" from hips to hands. To try to generate a throw solely using muscle recruitment ignores how the total body is utilized in a throw. I think there is a way to progress from the larger, pendulum-like motions into smaller, quicker snap-motions but there is little decent explanation that comes from the general Judo public. Thank you Judoka_UK for posting this.

    btw, I mostly use pitching mechanics to train/explain throws. There is a lot of practical information to be had. For instance: a pitch out of the windup is a larger movement, out of the stretch is a smaller movement; pitchers tend to isolate into three count-movements before delivery or two count movements. etc
    Many things we do naturally become difficult only when we try to make them intellectual subjects. It is possible to know so much about a subject that you become totally ignorant.
    -Mentat Text Two (dicto)
  3. BKR is online now
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    My dog is cuter and smarter than yours.

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    Posted On:
    10/25/2010 1:59am

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     Style: Kodokan Judo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Coach Josh View Post
    I think its a matter of personal preference rather than actual proper method. IF you do it one way and someone does it another and you both get the same result is it wrong?

    As a coach I do not like it because of the false sense of speed and power it gives to the beginning practitioner. I am more interested in developing proper technique in my students then anything else. If and when they reach a level of technical proficiency that they can go train with elite level coaches then they can recommend doing uchi komis that way.

    I believe that if they can generate good foot speed from a dead stop without relying on the windup then if they choose to us it later on they could be faster. I catch myself doing the wind up when I am doing speed uchi komi sets and try to stop but it just feels natural.
    I agree. My comments were not meant to be about right or wrong, just sharing my observations and thoughts over the years. I think the main problem is that you have people teaching Judo that never think about or discuss what we are discussing now, just teach what they were taught, however inefficient or disorganized it might be.

    In my experience, if I am teaching the technical aspects of the throw correctly, then the basics of generating power from the hips/hara will be there. What I have found is that concentrating on that "too soon" (which will vary from student to student) basically confuses. Plus, I think a person has to have decent "Judo" coordination before they can focus more on the specifics of "hip power". There is so much going on in learning a throw, even at a very basic level, I try not to over explain things.

    I find myself doing wind up stuff as well at time, as you do, particularly when practicing static uchikomi (but I don't do a lot of those). I have found that static uchikomi when done correctly are actually more difficult to do than just throwing uke. It takes more coordination to stop in the middle of a throw than it does to just finish the throw!

    Ben
  4. BKR is online now
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    My dog is cuter and smarter than yours.

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    Posted On:
    10/25/2010 2:27am

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     Style: Kodokan Judo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by judoka_uk View Post
    snipp...
    Even if what you were saying was a criticism I don't mind its good for people to see differing opinions being aired so both sides can make their case and then people can decide who or what they want to go with.
    That's my entire point about posting my views, even if they surficially differ in detail but not principle from what you post.

    Quote Originally Posted by judoka_uk View Post
    I totally understand why you have the concerns you do I definitely don't introduce it early and I try and centre my teaching on fundamental principles and core skills like you do. Who knows maybe after teaching for 20 years I will downgrade the importance I put on this or modify my approach.
    You will definitly modify how you teach over the years, but you are light years ahead of where I was at your stage of development, and off to a great start.

    Quote Originally Posted by judoka_uk View Post
    You're absolutely right that posture, gripping and movement are key flaws in many people's Judo. Next week I have a former national champion coming to our club his approach is really focussed on movement drills and core tai sabaki skills and everytime I see him teach I learn new useful ways to drill things.
    That's great, it is an approach that I seldom see, hence poor movment/posture/grip skills being so common.

    Quote Originally Posted by judoka_uk View Post
    Coming back to the hips issue though I think introducing power generation from the hips, at the appropriate point, is important because it helps people move away from using just their upper bodies which has a positive impact in reducing stiff arming and potentially dangerous practices.
    Judo is all about timing, after all!

    Ben
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