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  1. judoka_uk is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/23/2010 8:21am

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    Fundamentals of Judo - Hips

    I haven’t done one of these in a while because I’ve been caught up with actually teaching Judo on the mat rather than on the interwebz. So here is another instalment.


    Something that has crept into earlier conversations on FoJ threads is the use of the hips and the whole body in developing power for Judo techniques. This thread will look at more specific examples of that utilisation of whole body power through the hips
    Let’s take a look at using the hips to generate whole body power in a static situation – uchikomi.

    There are two main methods of doing this both of which involve ‘weighting’ uke as part of the action, which has been touched on by myself and BKR before.

    The first is often criticised by coaches who admonish their students and tell them not to do it because it will create a ‘tell’. That is the swinging backwards and upwards of the leg that will become the one placed at the peak of the triangle and the pivot foot. The ‘tell’ thing is bollocks.


    Go Tsunoda teaching himself a bad habit. Everyone can ‘tell’ when this Japanese contest 5th dan is coming in for his techniques...

    The other method of weighting uke in order to generate hip power is where tori starts very far away from uke and with both feet together and leans into uke.



    You can see very clearly from this image that uke is being weighted he is bent at the knees and his posture is generally disrupted.

    Using this method tori can generate significant extra power, from his hips, which is then deployed into his tsurikomi action. It doesn’t matter which of these two methods of weighting uke and generating hip power you use, however, what is important is how you should be generating power for your tsurikomi action from the hips not just from the shoulders or upper body.

    Using the hips to generate power on the move – moving uchikomi and nagekomi.

    There are several ways to use the hips generate power for throws, I will, concentrate on using them for forward acceleration for O soto gari.

    Here is a good example of Yasuhiro Yamahsita using a hip twitch to generate for acceleration for his O soto gari:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UpZK3vwyJ04#t=2m39s


    Yamashita twitches his left hip forward:



    This creates torsion in the hips which then is uncoiled as Yamashita explodes forward into the technique:



    Yamashita is left handed so if you were right handed you would use a right side hip twitch to generate your momentum.


    If you watch any video of Yamashita performing his O soto gari you will notice the distinctive hip twitch:


    YouTube - Yamashita O Soto Gari Part 1


    YouTube - YAMASHITA,O SOTO GARI.


    This is not going to develop a ‘tell’ and I challenge any coach out there who believes it will to do randori with Yamashita and spot and stop his O soto gari through the supposed tell he would have developed.


    Yamashita also has a distinctive tobikomi style Uchimata where he chases or explodes into uke and as such also uses this hip twitch to develop forward accelerating power:


    YouTube - yasuhiro yamashita uchimata


    This hip twitch is a practice tool to help you develop hip power in your techniques, it is not the magic key to getting throws in randori although enough use of it in practice will help you randori.


    Learning how to use your hips to generate power is crucial in Judo and the sooner you can move away from just using the arms to generate power and effect kuzushi you will start noticing some serious improvements in the quality and smoothness of your throws in randori. A word of caution, however, as with all of these threads the tools given here are more conceptual than mandatory steps you must go through to throw. So don’t walk into randori next week expecting that a little hip twitch or weighting of uke will send the biggest guy in the dojo flying.



    As always anyone is free to comment, critique and ask questions.


    Links to previous threads:

    FoJ- Tsurikomi and the triangle
    Fundamentals of Judo - Tsurikomi and the Triangle - No BS MMA and Martial Arts


    FoJ- Practicing Combinations
    Fundamentals of Judo – Practicing combinations - No BS MMA and Martial Arts


    FoJ – Continual Kuzushi
    Fundamentals of Judo - Continual Kuzushi - No BS MMA and Martial Arts


  2. judoist is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/23/2010 8:43am


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    I hereby suggest that we buy judoka_uk a supporting membership so that he can put up a signature with links to all of his "Fundamentals of Judo" threads under every one of his posts.

    I believe that this would be especially good for newbietown threads by n00b judokas. Who agrees? :icon_thum
  3. DCS is online now
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    Posted On:
    10/23/2010 10:15am

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    Quote Originally Posted by judoist View Post
    Who agrees?
    I disagree.

    Phrost should give him supporting membership as payment for his efforts in giving quality judo advice, and his FoJ threads should be stickied.
  4. judoist is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/23/2010 10:34am


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    Quote Originally Posted by DCS View Post
    Phrost should give him supporting membership as payment for his efforts in giving quality judo advice, and his FoJ threads should be stickied.
    Seconded for "FoJ threads to be stickied". Can forum leaders (e.g. Plasma) do that or do we need to call a staff member?
  5. BKR is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/23/2010 8:52pm

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    Nice post, judoka_uk.

    It has always been a puzzle to me how you can see advanced judoka, as in the first two videos, winding up like they do in uchikomi, but, when they are in randori or shiai, they of course do not obviously wind up like that. My long time sensei (Ken) was really big on watching high level judoka train (our mutual next level sensei was a world class Japanese judoka, and my sensei was an elite level judoka in the US). He concluded that they were just copying what they had been taught as beginners, and that through randori and observation/osmosis, they discovered their own methods of weighting and using their whole bodies effectively. Ken used to video tape our sensei training and doing randori (with a very early Betamax camcorder), and spend hours watching him in slow motion and full speed. He looked much more like Yamashita in execution of his throws in randori/shiai, did not "wind up" at all.

    So, I am ambivalent about teaching beginners to "wind up" in static or moving uchikomi/nagekomi. On the one hand, I can see how it is a big, simple, exageration of movement that is easy to see, and can teach/demonstrate the principles involved. On the other hand, I have seen so many judoka who can do a lovely static uchikomi complete with big 'wind up', but who cannot throw for shite in randori, or even very well against a non-resisting uke. Of course, I've seen guys who can do the whole wind up thing as in the first 2 videos who are very, very good in randori/shiai, too. Thus the ambivalence on my part.

    I have tended to skip the whole wind up thing in my teaching and focus on throwing with movement and training specific tai sabaki as sotai and tandoku renshuu specifically applied to basic throws. I think that learning to move well and throw is more important than doing nice looking static uchikomi. The use of the hips/whole body comes about via training the tai sabaki, and as part of instruction in the basic throw. A large part of the process is for students to simply become aware of moving from their hips, I call it "leading" with the hips rather than the feet or upper body.

    Yamashita's examples are the best, as you have pointed out how he "really" use the hips in a non-exagerated, practical manner. Coming up with ways to train this directly is what I am constantly after for myself and my students.

    Ben
  6. judoka_uk is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/24/2010 1:25am

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    I use it because this kind of whole body or hip centred power generation is counter-intuitive for most people who almost exclusively use their upper body. In the little experience I have of Boxing and Thai boxing it was stressed how you have to use your hips to generate power for strikes. However, this is much easier to introduce for a kick or punch because they are much less complex motions than a throw.

    So because there are a million and one things to remember already when trying to do a throw concentrating on using the hips to generate power causes problems for a beginner. So I use this wind up method so that they start generating power from their hips before they begin thinking about where to step, how to use the hands etc...

    Why don't you see people doing wind ups or hip twitches in contest? Probably for the same reason you don't see many of the step by step breakdown points of a throw that you see in uchikomi and nagekomi, because during uchikomi and nagekomi people are running through stages in their heads just trying to get the gross motor skills together to actually be able to perform the throw. Once you get to an elite level and you've done thousands of hours of uchikomi and randori you've rewired your body so that the technique is instinctive and so is power generation from the hips. The body has been trained to utilise the hips to generate power and so doesn't need gross motion aide memoirs like demonstrated in the pictures and videos in my post.

    Of course as you also say this has to be combined with tai sabaki drills and practicing Judo on the move to learn that fundamental skill of debana. If people have been following the other FoJ threads I've made they should hopefully already be drilling tai sabaki, tsurikomi and Judo on the move, so this post should hopefully deepen their practice and compliment their tai sabaki, movement and debana drills.

    ------
    As for buying me things or whatever, there's not really any need for that although I appreciate the sentiment. People do seem to find these threads useful so stickying them would probably mean they continue to be accessible for people.

    One thing I have wondered is whether I should continue posting them here or whether I should move them to the Basic technique forum. I wonder how many people actually browse the TMA forums and whether they would be of greater benefit to the Bullshido community in the main forums.
  7. BKR is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/24/2010 2:57am

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    Quote Originally Posted by judoka_uk View Post
    I use it because this kind of whole body or hip centred power generation is counter-intuitive for most people who almost exclusively use their upper body. In the little experience I have of Boxing and Thai boxing it was stressed how you have to use your hips to generate power for strikes. However, this is much easier to introduce for a kick or punch because they are much less complex motions than a throw

    So because there are a million and one things to remember already when trying to do a throw concentrating on using the hips to generate power causes problems for a beginner. So I use this wind up method so that they start generating power from their hips before they begin thinking about where to step, how to use the hands etc... .
    I understand. I do not mean to criticize the approach, just share my ongoing thoughts on the matter. I've had the debate with myself for at least 15 years, if not 20. I think where people get messed up is that they are not taught in a progressive manner from basics to more advanced/complicated applications. So maybe they do the "wind up" method(s) and never get shown anything different, or quit Judo, and end up stuck there.

    I take the opposite approach. I am more concerned about whether or not students learn movement and throwing first and then any details of generating power in the hips. If I am teaching the major movements of the throw correctly, then they will be learning proper coordination. The reason for this is that over the years I have observed that the major problems most judoka face are related to poor posture, gripping (not grip fighting) and thus movement and an inability to throw with movement (as a consequence).

    So my shift is over, going home. I'll try to finish this later.

    Again, no criticism on my part, must sharing my experience.

    Ben

    Why don't you see people doing wind ups or hip twitches in contest? Probably for the same reason you don't see many of the step by step breakdown points of a throw that you see in uchikomi and nagekomi, because during uchikomi and nagekomi people are running through stages in their heads just trying to get the gross motor skills together to actually be able to perform the throw. Once you get to an elite level and you've done thousands of hours of uchikomi and randori you've rewired your body so that the technique is instinctive and so is power generation from the hips. The body has been trained to utilise the hips to generate power and so doesn't need gross motion aide memoirs like demonstrated in the pictures and videos in my post.

    Of course as you also say this has to be combined with tai sabaki drills and practicing Judo on the move to learn that fundamental skill of debana. If people have been following the other FoJ threads I've made they should hopefully already be drilling tai sabaki, tsurikomi and Judo on the move, so this post should hopefully deepen their practice and compliment their tai sabaki, movement and debana drills.
  8. Ming Loyalist is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/24/2010 4:29am

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    Quote Originally Posted by DCS View Post
    I disagree.

    Phrost should give him supporting membership as payment for his efforts in giving quality judo advice, and his FoJ threads should be stickied.
    i believe that he is also a judo shodan and an instructor, and should get tags for them. judoka_uk, is there a reason that you haven't asked for them? they serve a useful purpose around here in terms of sorting out the advice of instructors vs. that of others.
    "Face punches are an essential character building part of a martial art. You don't truly love your children unless you allow them to get punched in the face." - chi-conspiricy
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  9. judoka_uk is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/24/2010 4:48am

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ming Loyalist View Post
    i believe that he is also a judo shodan and an instructor, and should get tags for them. judoka_uk, is there a reason that you haven't asked for them? they serve a useful purpose around here in terms of sorting out the advice of instructors vs. that of others.
    I am both of those yes. The reason I haven't asked is because I'd rather that I garnered respect for my opinions through posting quality material and advice. The people who get respect get it through knowing what they are talking about not because a little coloured box above their name says so. Although the tag system is a good idea I'm not knocking it, just that its not the way I like to go about things.

    Also because I'm very conscious about 'e legacy' I like to remain anonymous so that I can say what I want about whomever I want online without having to worry about a future employer googling my name and finding me cracking dodgy jokes etc...

    Of course if there were to be any questions about my credentials I'm happy to prove them to a mod. Although I doubt anyone is going to challenge that I only have the Judo knowledge of a shodan lol.

    Quote Originally Posted by BKR View Post
    I understand. I do not mean to criticize the approach, just share my ongoing thoughts on the matter. I've had the debate with myself for at least 15 years, if not 20. I think where people get messed up is that they are not taught in a progressive manner from basics to more advanced/complicated applications. So maybe they do the "wind up" method(s) and never get shown anything different, or quit Judo, and end up stuck there.

    I take the opposite approach. I am more concerned about whether or not students learn movement and throwing first and then any details of generating power in the hips. If I am teaching the major movements of the throw correctly, then they will be learning proper coordination. The reason for this is that over the years I have observed that the major problems most judoka face are related to poor posture, gripping (not grip fighting) and thus movement and an inability to throw with movement (as a consequence).

    So my shift is over, going home. I'll try to finish this later.

    Again, no criticism on my part, must sharing my experience.

    Ben
    Even if what you were saying was a criticism I don't mind its good for people to see differing opinions being aired so both sides can make their case and then people can decide who or what they want to go with.

    I totally understand why you have the concerns you do I definitely don't introduce it early and I try and centre my teaching on fundamental principles and core skills like you do. Who knows maybe after teaching for 20 years I will downgrade the importance I put on this or modify my approach.

    You're absolutely right that posture, gripping and movement are key flaws in many people's Judo. Next week I have a former nationla champion coming to our club his approach is really focussed on movement drills and core tai sabaki skills and everytime I see him teach I learn new useful ways to drill things.

    Coming back to the hips issue though I think introducing power generation from the hips, at the appropriate point, is important because it helps people move away from using just their upper bodies which has a positive impact in reducing stiff arming and potentially dangerous practices.
  10. Coach Josh is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/24/2010 7:55am

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    I think its a matter of personal preference rather than actual proper method. IF you do it one way and someone does it another and you both get the same result is it wrong?

    As a coach I do not like it because of the false sense of speed and power it gives to the beginning practitioner. I am more interested in developing proper technique in my students then anything else. If and when they reach a level of technical proficiency that they can go train with elite level coaches then they can recommend doing uchi komis that way.

    I believe that if they can generate good foot speed from a dead stop without relying on the windup then if they choose to us it later on they could be faster. I catch myself doing the wind up when I am doing speed uchi komi sets and try to stop but it just feels natural.
    Judo is only gentle for the guy on top.
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