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  1. MMAMickey is offline
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    POWERRR!

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    Posted On:
    10/23/2010 1:13am

    Join us... or die
     Style: Boxing.MMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I was under the impression that knights were, more often than not, captured in battle and held for ransom as opposed to killed?
    "The hero and the coward both feel the same thing, but the hero projects his fear onto his opponent while the coward runs. 'Fear'. It's the same thing, but it's what you do with it that matters". - Cus D'Amato
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  2. JudOWNED is offline
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    北斗十字固拳

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    Posted On:
    10/23/2010 3:30am

    supporting member
     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    You're correct, Mickey.

    The only historical explanation I've ever heard for black/white is that white was worn in southern lattitudes because of the heat, and black was used to cover shields for knights who wanted to remain anonymous by covering their family crest during tournaments.
  3. Rene "Zendokan" Gysenbergs is offline
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    fist first Philosopher

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    Posted On:
    10/23/2010 4:45am

    Join us... or die
     Style: Savate (LBF/SD/LC) - BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by MMAMickey View Post
    I was under the impression that knights were, more often than not, captured in battle and held for ransom as opposed to killed?
    1302, Battle of the Golden spurs was the turningpoint.
    A minimum of 1000 of the 2500 knights that made up the French Cavalry were killed. There was a order of not taking prisoners on the Flemish Side (of that time: East and West Flandria, Antwerp and Namur).

    That battle proved that a cavalry could be destroyed by tactical use of a highly trained and heavenly armored infantry, which send a shockwave through Europe at that time.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jiujitsu77
    You know you are crazy about BJJ/Martial arts when...
    Quote Originally Posted by Humanzee
    ...your books on Kama Sutra and BJJ are interchangeable.
    Quote Originally Posted by jk55299 on Keysi Fighting Method
    It looks like this is a great fighting method if someone replaces your shampoo with superglue.
    The real deadly:
  4. lklawson is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/23/2010 6:56am


     Style: Bowie

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    IMS, Terry Brown's "English Martial Arts" has a discussion about the Black Bill potentially being "black" due to pain or lacquer as a rust inhibitor. Additionally, the discussion continues to the "Brown Bill" and whether or not that's the same thing, if it's just a different color lacquer, or if it's slang for an untreated Bill which rusted.

    Peace favor your sword,
    Kirk
  5. Kovacs is offline
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    Senior Member

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    Posted On:
    10/23/2010 7:04am


     Style: 5x5, 5.56mm

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Zendokan View Post
    Wouldn't that be the equivalent of painting a bullseye on you?

    Not only your subjects could see you, your enemies would be really looking out for you.
    In Naval battles (with the wooden ships) the officers had to dressdown to a common command uniform as a way of protection.
    Chivalry was invented in the Renaissance, so I really doubt that making yourself a target was considered wise in Mideivel times.
    True but I think they needed to make it clear to thier allies what side they were on so colours were a good idea. I read once that Samuri personalised thier armour a lot so that when they did some cool **** on the battlefield they could rightly claim credit for it and get props/promotions etc for it. I assume it could have worked out similiarly in Europe.
  6. Rene "Zendokan" Gysenbergs is offline
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    fist first Philosopher

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    Posted On:
    10/23/2010 7:25am

    Join us... or die
     Style: Savate (LBF/SD/LC) - BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Yes, that's true.
    Your tunic and your cloak would show to which camp you belonged, so that enemies and allies wouldn't get confused in the heat of the battle.

    The wapen on your shield would specify who you would be exactly.

    When 2000 knights come storming towards you on horseback, you aren't going to be looking for a specific shield, so there's some anonimity in the big picture. Only your enemies and allies who would be close to you could identify you.

    Painting your armour light and wearing a light tunic and cloak to show importance (according to Pilgrim's theory, how lighter of colour, how higher of importance) would make you stand out in a charge and make you a prime target.
    Kill the head of the beast and the body will come to a halt.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jiujitsu77
    You know you are crazy about BJJ/Martial arts when...
    Quote Originally Posted by Humanzee
    ...your books on Kama Sutra and BJJ are interchangeable.
    Quote Originally Posted by jk55299 on Keysi Fighting Method
    It looks like this is a great fighting method if someone replaces your shampoo with superglue.
    The real deadly:
  7. Kovacs is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/23/2010 7:30am


     Style: 5x5, 5.56mm

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I guess it's a double edged sword (pun intended), don't get stabbed by your mates but increase te chances of being stabbed by your enemies.
  8. willaume is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/23/2010 8:15am


     Style: aikido, medieval fencing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Hello all.

    Well like everything medieval, there is a lots a Victorian craft that need to be sieved though.

    We do have historical traces of treating the steel of a full plate; Colour blue or black (heat colouring), green (cant remember how it is was done I think acid was used) or red (controlled corrosion)
    As well we do have at least one example of a sallet being painted in with lasagnes of different colours. So actual painting did exist.

    In any case it is an anti corrosion treatment, horse sweat is the worse.

    For the white armour, it is probably a myth or a mis-understanding of what a white harness (blanc harnois) actually is.
    When full plate appeared,(1390 is according to where in the Europe) you where the armour was what we now call transitional armour.
    It usually consisted of a light padding, mail plate cuirass possibly with a back, arms and leads with another heavily padded layer on top of that.
    Full plate gloves and basinet with avantail (mail over massive padding)

    Full plate replaced all that, In academic circles there are some that believe that leaving your armour untreated and using vegetal oil as anti corrosion (olive oil for example) Especially at the early stage of the full plate was a sign of power.
    Hence the white harness

    Now regardless of the period having heavy armour marked you as a rich man (a bespoke suit of plate cost 8-10 at the time (equivalent top of the range sports car in today’s money).


    Your arms were worn by your retainers and on your tabard if you had plate.
    In the mail and transition armour time either you wron you arms on the heavy padding or on a surcoat (light fabric).
    Heraldic have relatively strict rules and you could only used a certain colours. So the lighter the colour the more important you are seems a bit far fetched but well

    The shield was used as well, but by the time of the full plate the shield became totally redundant.

    It is true that in tournament and in later joust, a competitor could have his arms covered by cloth or have fantasy arms if he did not want to be recognised.
    But we have to remember that tournament were borderline of organised mugging. (cf William le marshal)

    phil
  9. Kovacs is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/23/2010 9:24am


     Style: 5x5, 5.56mm

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Cheers Phil. What's with the 'mugging' at tourneys, were they generally corrupt as hell?
  10. willaume is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/24/2010 12:40am


     Style: aikido, medieval fencing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Kovacs View Post
    Cheers Phil. What's with the 'mugging' at tourneys, were they generally corrupt as hell?
    Hello Kovacs
    From what i understood.
    Tourneys or tournaments (ie early hastiludes) were not as organised as the XV cent melee.

    by the XIV-XV cent, there was rules and regulations but in the century earlier.
    in the earlier form there was no enclosure, and it was more a mock battles/skirmishes.
    it is hard to say for sure it that was the norm but its seems that It was more a matter of ganging up on someone , rinse and repeat and sharing the prise with your partner than any victorian knightly ideal.
    William Marshal, 1st earl of Pembroke made his fortune that way.


    As seeing that as being "corrupted" is kind of a 20th cent value. A medieval “fair fight” is turning up with more men, better armour, better weapons, when the guy is getting up to take is morning slash.



    Phil
    Last edited by willaume; 10/24/2010 12:47am at .
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