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  1. Gustard is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/08/2011 5:14pm


     Style: Judo, BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by madmonkey View Post
    at 31 I cant say much no insult or patronising intended

    good ukemi is useful but some throws such as tomoenage can be better practised first on a crash mat
    Many say your Ukemi will not improve with crash mats. Tomoenage is not one that slams you into the floor either.
  2. Colin is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/08/2011 5:27pm

    supporting member
     Style: MT/BJJ/MMA

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by judoka_uk View Post
    I always think the technical vs competitive is a misnomer
    *pushups

    The Ukemi for tomoe nage is literally a forward roll in which you stop half way. How the hell is a crashmat useful here? Is Tori doing the "Ken Masters" version of Tomoe nage or something?

    Ken Masters's Hell Wheel
    a.k.a. Jigoku Sha, 地獄車

    Ken's variant of the Tomoe Nage sees him take the opponent for a full somersault before kicking them away. This move was the first real difference between Ken and Ryu.
    Last edited by Colin; 5/08/2011 5:34pm at .
  3. judoka_uk is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/08/2011 5:41pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Judo

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gustard View Post
    What I have found is there seems to be two types of club wherever Ive gone. In one type of club you will find most of the serious competitors who need to concentrate on cardio as much as technique. As you say often these clubs are kind of testosteronish and often have crappy technique (unless they are an elite national squad training club) relying more on speed and strength and stupid amounts of grip fighting in randori (drop seo nages are popular in England but outside of the UK I havent seen them so much). The other type of clubs seems to be more "technical" but actually they usually have older/laid back people who want to practise Judo more recreationally and therefore spend more time focussing on the nuances of technique (crappy or otherwise) than doing say, 200 super fast uchikomis.
    Occasionally you will find a well balanced club that has both good technique and challenging cardio . Id say the Budokwai was one example.
    My solution so far has been to go to two clubs - one insane meathead cardio club to get fit and try my techniques out in ridiculously competitive enviroment where shia and randori blur into one, and the other a more relaxed club where you can at least get a grip and practise your throws.
    I think you misunderstand my position.

    The truly competitive clubs teach excellent technique examples the Budokwai, Camberly, Hardy Spicer etc....

    A lot of clubs claim they are 'competitive' but lack the technical knowledge to produce people are have the skills to win serious competitions.

    Then there are clubs that claim to be 'technical' positioning themselves in opposition to clubs that claim to be 'competitive'. In reality the clubs that position themselves as either 'competitiive' or 'technical' are neither. The clubs that attempt to put themselves in a certain category usually teach **** technique.

    That is not to say that clubs that don't concentrate on competition don't produce excellent Judoka, the Hosaka kwai is an excellent example of a club that isn't self defined as 'competitive' or 'technical' yet still produces Judoka with excellent technique.

    My issue is with clubs that claim they are 'competitive' or 'technical' yet that still teach **** technique.
  4. Gustard is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/08/2011 6:03pm


     Style: Judo, BJJ

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    Quote Originally Posted by judoka_uk View Post
    I think you misunderstand my position.

    The truly competitive clubs teach excellent technique examples the Budokwai, Camberly, Hardy Spicer etc....

    A lot of clubs claim they are 'competitive' but lack the technical knowledge to produce people are have the skills to win serious competitions.

    Then there are clubs that claim to be 'technical' positioning themselves in opposition to clubs that claim to be 'competitive'. In reality the clubs that position themselves as either 'competitiive' or 'technical' are neither. The clubs that attempt to put themselves in a certain category usually teach **** technique.

    That is not to say that clubs that don't concentrate on competition don't produce excellent Judoka, the Hosaka kwai is an excellent example of a club that isn't self defined as 'competitive' or 'technical' yet still produces Judoka with excellent technique.

    My issue is with clubs that claim they are 'competitive' or 'technical' yet that still teach **** technique.
    Yeah I get where you are coming from and agree. I guess my original comments referred to clubs that I saw as competitive or technical. Of course if I was more careful with my words I would say clubs that focussed more or less on extreme physical exercise . Sale didnt fare very well in BJA comps for a while predominantly because all the most commonly used techniques used in British competitions were prohibited and also because grip fighting was discouraged in the club until you had learnt to do the throws. BUT when somebody came of age and really had very profound Judo base developed over years and then they learnt the nuances of Kumi Kata, defending drop sio nages etc their technique is unstoppable. The problem with many clubs now is they are teaching whitebelts to grip fight so they spend all randori messing around with grips instead of practicing their throws. Anyway - I digress.
  5. judoka_uk is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/08/2011 6:39pm

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     Style: Judo

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    I went to this year's St. Ives BJC event and watched the grading. It was shocking how the people competing had no idea what to do when placed in a disadvantageous gripping situation.

    Especially when I know Hosaka sensei advocated dominating the sleeve and good gripping technique, but not excessive grip fighting.

    When I was doing the randori, because I always neutral grip in randori, everyone's technique was good, but when the same guys with excellent technique entered the grading and were faced with a disadvantageous grip they had no idea.

    That's not good Judo and its not what Hosaka sensei would have wanted. He didn't want the awful patty cake gripping, but at the same time he didn't want people to get dominated and not have a clue how to deploy their Judo because they had no understanding of gripping.

    It was dissapointing.
  6. bigstu31s is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/09/2011 5:37am


     Style: Judo

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    At what level do you think a Judoka should start to learn grip fighting?
  7. judoka_uk is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/09/2011 6:07am

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     Style: Judo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Well you should learn gripping - how to grip the gi, how to use the jacket, basics like the inside grip, from day 1.

    In an ideal world you would teach grip fighting at blue/ brown belt and then only positive grip fighting to ensure that you don't get dominated and know how to achieve your grip to do positive Judo.

    Unfortunately the realities mean that even orange belts going into comps need to understand the basics of grip figthing and when we put our guys and gals forward for comps we always make sure they have a basic understanding of how to break a grip and set their grip, because otherwise they're not going to survive and wont know what to do.
  8. Gustard is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/09/2011 8:34am


     Style: Judo, BJJ

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    Quote Originally Posted by judoka_uk View Post
    I went to this year's St. Ives BJC event and watched the grading. It was shocking how the people competing had no idea what to do when placed in a disadvantageous gripping situation.

    Especially when I know Hosaka sensei advocated dominating the sleeve and good gripping technique, but not excessive grip fighting.

    When I was doing the randori, because I always neutral grip in randori, everyone's technique was good, but when the same guys with excellent technique entered the grading and were faced with a disadvantageous grip they had no idea.

    That's not good Judo and its not what Hosaka sensei would have wanted. He didn't want the awful patty cake gripping, but at the same time he didn't want people to get dominated and not have a clue how to deploy their Judo because they had no understanding of gripping.

    It was dissapointing.
    Well Mr Hosaka advocated just taking the sleeve lapel grip . He never taught us how to grip fight or break grips in the entire time I was there apart from I think he might have taught us to break the lapel grip by pulling down the line of the gi collar and how to break the behind the neck grip.
    His motives are far beyond my ken but I know he was keen to prevent the spread of what he called negative Judo.
    One thing to bear in mind is that throws takes thousands of repetitions in Randori before you can pull them off whereas basic grip fighting can be learned relatively quickly. If lower grades spend a significant amount of time in Randori grip fighting (and many do ) their progress in actually learning to throw will be a lot slower. I think it is worth sacrificing competition success of lower grades until they learn how to throw first. I would therefore say until blue or brown belt grip fighting should be kept to a minimum in Randori - but then you already said that.
    I have also heard randori at ther Kodokan is pretty much sleeve/lapel affair.
    Never been to the St Ives course though Ive been to the club - beautiful little town to do a Judo course.
    Last edited by Gustard; 5/09/2011 8:54am at .
  9. judoka_uk is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/09/2011 8:51am

    Join us... or die
     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Well two years ago at St. Ives Hosaka sensei taught a class on grip fighting and made a point of controlling or as he said 'dominating' the sleeve. He wasn't taking about the negative gripping but he concentrated on how not to be stuck up **** creek so making sure you weren't being dominated like the high collar grip you mention.

    I didn't watch the kyu gradings, was on the beach, but I did watch the dan grading and it really stuck out to me. There was a young skinny guy there who had beautiful Judo, I was watching him all weekend because his technique was so nice and he was only about 17/18.

    Anyway he gets to the dan grading and he has all the technique in the world, great throws, really nice Judo, but the guys he's fighting get dominant grips and he's all at sea. He literally didn't know what to do, even simple stuff like getting the inside grip he didn't seem aware. And he suffered because of it and lost matches to guys whose Judo was nowhere near as good as his. All it would have taken is for someone who had clear taught him some great Judo to have also shown him the basics of gripping and breaking a grip and he would have been able to deploy his Judo as it was he had a fully loaded magazine with no gun to shoot the bullets with.

    You should go to St. Ives course next time you're in the UK great Judo and lots of fun. I'll be the guy trying and failing not to make a fool of himself, give me a shout and I'll buy you a beer.
  10. Gustard is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/11/2011 11:45am


     Style: Judo, BJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by judoka_uk View Post
    Well two years ago at St. Ives Hosaka sensei taught a class on grip fighting and made a point of controlling or as he said 'dominating' the sleeve. He wasn't taking about the negative gripping but he concentrated on how not to be stuck up **** creek so making sure you weren't being dominated like the high collar grip you mention.

    I didn't watch the kyu gradings, was on the beach, but I did watch the dan grading and it really stuck out to me. There was a young skinny guy there who had beautiful Judo, I was watching him all weekend because his technique was so nice and he was only about 17/18.

    Anyway he gets to the dan grading and he has all the technique in the world, great throws, really nice Judo, but the guys he's fighting get dominant grips and he's all at sea. He literally didn't know what to do, even simple stuff like getting the inside grip he didn't seem aware. And he suffered because of it and lost matches to guys whose Judo was nowhere near as good as his. All it would have taken is for someone who had clear taught him some great Judo to have also shown him the basics of gripping and breaking a grip and he would have been able to deploy his Judo as it was he had a fully loaded magazine with no gun to shoot the bullets with.

    You should go to St. Ives course next time you're in the UK great Judo and lots of fun. I'll be the guy trying and failing not to make a fool of himself, give me a shout and I'll buy you a beer.
    Beer sounds good - I was getting quite into real ales last time I was in Cornwall. P.S. Im dew from the judo forum - Im guessing you are the same judoka Uk ? anyway must get on with some work !
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