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  1. Styygens is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/22/2010 10:06am


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    Quote Originally Posted by DCS View Post
    However, we should not assume all Edo era bujutsu lacked combative utility and kata was the only training method.

    As a example: the developement of shinai/fukuro shinai and protective equipment in early Edo era allowed practise with some degree of aliveness like the Maniwa Nen-ryu guys you can see between 2:14 and 2:58 of this clip:

    http://www.tudou.com/programs/view/jfC7uNynU5k/
    I didn't say anything about combative utility. I am aware of "No-Holds-Barred"-type competitions between jujutsu schools during the transition to the modern era. Clearly, they did fight sometimes.
  2. DCS is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/23/2010 5:09am

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    What I was trying to convey is that alive training methods were not uncommon in Tokugawa era bujutsu even in weapon arts.

    The idea of alive training having its origins in late modern/early contemporary Japan is mostly innacurate.
    Last edited by DCS; 10/23/2010 5:20am at .
  3. Styygens is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/23/2010 5:51am


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    Ah! Apologies.

    Do you have any more info on the methods that were used? I haven't seen much on the topic of alive training in koryu.
  4. judoist is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/23/2010 7:28am


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    Styygens, the Owari Kan Ryu school of spearmanship (sojutsu), founded in 1671. by Tsuda Gonnojo Taira Nobuyuki is a prime example of alive koryu training.

    They have sparring in every training session, wear armour similar to kendo bogu (a little bit more heavy duty), and sometimes mix up sparring with sword vs spear or spear vs naginata matchups.
  5. DCS is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/23/2010 8:42am

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    Quote Originally Posted by Styygens View Post
    Ah! Apologies.
    Is me who has to apologize for my poor English.


    Do you have any more info on the methods that were used? I haven't seen much on the topic of alive training in koryu.
    I suppose they engaged in similar matches like the ones in the clip I posted before.

    What is clear, imo, is they developed substitutes for bokken as early as 16th century.

    See for instance:
    "In his search for a worthy successor, Kamiizumi Ise no Kami engaged Yagyu Tajima no Kami Taira no Munetoshi (1527-1606) in combat, defeating the latter by using the kiki-hada, a sword made of bamboo strips covered with the skin of toads*." Draeger in Classical Budo, p.72


    Later, we have the developement of shinai and protective equipement:

    "The introduction of bamboo practice swords (shinai) and armour (bogu) to "ken" training is attributed to Naganuma Sirozaemon Kunisato** during the Shotoku Era (1711-1715). Naganuma developed the use of kendo-gu (bogu) (protective equipment) and established a training method using the shinai.

    In addition, the inscription on the gravestone of Yamada Heizaemon Mitsunori's, (1638-1718) third son Naganuma Sirozaemon Kunisato (1688-1767), the 8th headmaster of the Kashima Shinden Jikishinkage-ryu Kenjutsu, states that his exploits included improving the bokuto and shinai, and refining the armour by adding a metal grill to the men and thick cotton protective coverings to the kote. Kunisato inherited the tradition from his father Heizaemon in 1708, and the two of them worked hard together to improve the bogu until Heizaemon's death."
    Source: http://www.chuokendo.com/kendo-history

    And chapter 4 or Friday's Legacies of the sword:
    the Kashima-Shinryū and samurai martial culture


    * mistranslation, no amphibians were stripped for covering the bamboo.
    ** Jiki Shinkage-ryu
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