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  1. greenguy is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/17/2010 1:15pm


     Style: Former FSD

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Another "You know Nothing We have the Real" Kung fu thread

    Hi mrbogus.

    Given that I do not live in Winnipeg, and have no direct experience with this Tiger Claw dojo, I may be WAY off base. I did want to make a comment though.

    This place sounds just like the Fang Shen Do schools in Ottawa, Eastern Ontario, and Quebec. They make claims very similar to the ones you mentioned in your opening post. This business about how they "change with the times", in my mind, is a gigantic red flag. All that says is that they want to continually grab cash instead of teaching anything of use.

    The short version of Fang - the "grandmaster" trained a couple of weekends with James Demile, stole his training manual, then claimed to be an expert in kung fu and silat. He has been discredited by Demile himself, and by anyone associated with Silat training in North America. Over time his curriculum has changed and now includes weapons, grappling/wrestling/BJJ, and MMA. Despite repeated requests to provide proof of certification, none has been provided to show they can actually back up their claims. As such, they could very well be teaching out of books they got at the public library. Until about two years ago, the instructors claimed that anyone practicing BJJ had to have their sexuality questioned. Now they claim to be experts despite no certification. One instructor joined up with a BJJ school and is no doubt learning something, but is certainly no more than a beginner. They have very few examples of sparring/fighting with people outside their own system, and have one questionably professional fight that can't be comfirmed anywhere. Do you think that the quality of instruction can be too high given that level of experience?

    There are many threads on Fang Shen Do and their garbage teaching here on Bullshido if you want to get a real cautionary tale.

    So my advice is this - ask for certification. What is the lineage of the school and the instructors? It is all fine and good that you don't want forms and kata, but if they are teaching complete garbage that will never work either in a ring or on the street then what is the point of wasting your money? As an example, check out the review on the Bob Carver school in Ottawa - they don't give belts but they teach quality techniques. Talk to some former students if you can. Take an introductory class and see what the school is all about. Check out the price relative to the other schools in your area. Do they claim mastery in many arts? Can they prove it? Are they one o fthe multitude of "MMA" schools that seem to be popping up? Do they have anyone who fights professionally?

    At the end of the day it is your time and money. Just make sure you do your research before you sign a contract.
    Last edited by greenguy; 5/17/2010 1:21pm at .
  2. Fu-Jow is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/13/2010 10:27pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Baguazhang, Tai-Chi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I first trained at Tiger Claw in 1979 through my high school years. Since that time, I am still a member and would not even think of training anywhere else. You will not find a better school to go to.....trust me. Anyone thinking different is always someone who never stuck around long enough to find out what is really being taught and how good the instruction really is. ( Or they left because it was getting to hard). I`ve seen people come and go and if you talk to them or see their comments on such things as these, you can tell right away ....they never got it. Maybe if they stuck around long enough after the basics, (not of Bagua but body mechanics) they would have found out. The school teaches Bagua and Tai Chi as well as self defense. Baguazhang is one of the 3 internal styles. Most people have never heard of it , let alone know anything about it. Those that claim they do....don`t. Just like Tai-Chi. Everyone thinks they know what Tai Chi is... but they don`t. I`ve seen so called instructors come to class and they find out very quickly that they don`t know anything about it. Tai Chi is NOT some slow dance or exercise as everyone thinks. You would be very surprised as to what the movements really are and what they do to an opponent! That... you will not learn anywhere else. If you want to learn Bagua and or Tai Chi for real,....Tiger Claw is the school to go to. There is a reason the school has been around as long as it has and has the reputation that it does. (Just ask people on the street that really know). You will not find better instructors or head instructor as Pat Gallegher. This is not a school that wants your money...it is a school for people who really want to train and be away from the BS. This school is like that gem of a teacher the white guy tries to find in china town in a movie to teach him Gung-Fu. If there is one thing this Gung-FU school is not about....is BS. If ones` attitude is of a lets say a questionable nature...your gone. As well,....nothing is handed to you..... you earn it! So if you want to learn something for real,...join and stick around long enough to have the light bulb go on. Try finding someone to teach the internal arts that really know what they are talking about and know them....and well....Good luck. That is almost non existent. Tiger Claw however is is that place to learn and learn properly. Baguazhang is the most interesting art of them all. Bagua is not what you will be doing though for some time. There is a lot of body mechanics (basics) that you will be doing first and trust me you will find out why eventually. Anyone that has stuck it out to find out what this school teaches has never been disapointed. By the way,....loosing is not something this school is known for...ever. You`ld be surprised on the street how people who would have normally confronted you that don`t even know you......won`t bother if they get a wif of where you train....and that`s not BS.
  3. mrbigglesworth is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/13/2010 11:05pm


     Style: jiujitsu, karate, shorinj

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I've heard about them. Actually an ex fang shen do guy went there when he was in winnipeg for a while. He said that they are somewhat similar in the sense that they can't tell you dick about their lineage. He said It's all shifty! Now He's a Judo brown belt here in ottawa. Maybe black now.
  4. Nicko1 is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/14/2010 1:54am


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Hello Mr Jow. Welcome to Bullshido. I'll try to get this across as quickly as possible. It may therefore come out as rude. Not my intention.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fu-Jow View Post
    I first trained at Tiger Claw in 1979 through my high school years. Since that time, I am still a member and would not even think of training anywhere else. You will not find a better school to go to.....trust me.
    No one here knows you, therefore we have no basis for trust. Sorry, that's the interwebz for you.

    If you have never even thought of training anywhere else, how do you know there is not anything better out there?

    Anyone thinking different is always someone who never stuck around long enough to find out what is really being taught and how good the instruction really is. ( Or they left because it was getting to hard). I`ve seen people come and go and if you talk to them or see their comments on such things as these, you can tell right away ....they never got it. Maybe if they stuck around long enough after the basics, (not of Bagua but body mechanics) they would have found out.
    This may be true. It may be false. You have provided no evidence, so refer to my previous point about trust. You might also want to refer to the "Bullshidoka Arguments" thread that is stickied in this forum.

    The school teaches Bagua and Tai Chi as well as self defense. Baguazhang is one of the 3 internal styles. Most people have never heard of it , let alone know anything about it. Those that claim they do....don`t. Just like Tai-Chi. Everyone thinks they know what Tai Chi is... but they don`t. I`ve seen so called instructors come to class and they find out very quickly that they don`t know anything about it. Tai Chi is NOT some slow dance or exercise as everyone thinks. You would be very surprised as to what the movements really are and what they do to an opponent! That... you will not learn anywhere else. If you want to learn Bagua and or Tai Chi for real,....Tiger Claw is the school to go to.
    We have regular posters who practice both these styles (as well as an entire forum devoted to CMA). The general attitude you will find here is an emphasis on alive training methods and competitive verification of student skill rather than a focus on "authentic" style.

    Again, if you have not tried anything else, then what is the basis for your assertion about what other schools do?

    There is a reason the school has been around as long as it has and has the reputation that it does. (Just ask people on the street that really know). You will not find better instructors or head instructor as Pat Gallegher. This is not a school that wants your money...it is a school for people who really want to train and be away from the BS. This school is like that gem of a teacher the white guy tries to find in china town in a movie to teach him Gung-Fu. If there is one thing this Gung-FU school is not about....is BS. If ones` attitude is of a lets say a questionable nature...your gone. As well,....nothing is handed to you..... you earn it! So if you want to learn something for real,...join and stick around long enough to have the light bulb go on. Try finding someone to teach the internal arts that really know what they are talking about and know them....and well....Good luck. That is almost non existent. Tiger Claw however is is that place to learn and learn properly. Baguazhang is the most interesting art of them all. Bagua is not what you will be doing though for some time. There is a lot of body mechanics (basics) that you will be doing first and trust me you will find out why eventually. Anyone that has stuck it out to find out what this school teaches has never been disapointed. By the way,....loosing is not something this school is known for...ever.
    Now would probably be the time to point out that a block of text is very hard to read. Many people will see the block, assume you are illiterate, extrapolate that you are ignorant, then not bother with your post.

    It is often difficult for a prospective student to know how to judge the quality of a CMA school due to the lack of standardised rankings. One good yardstick is a competition record. Most of us have seen impressive performances of CMA practicioners competing under the "San Shou" ruleset. Can you refer us to any competitions where the school has acquired this reputation for never "loosing"?

    Or do you just have awesome streetfighting anecdotes?

    You`ld be surprised on the street how people who would have normally confronted you that don`t even know you......won`t bother if they get a wif of where you train....and that`s not BS.
    Yes, I would be surprised. Again, read the "Bullshidoka Arguments" thread.

    I hope that you are in a position to actually provide some hard evidence to this thread. Seeing as you ressurected it after five months of dormancy. We would all be delighted to find a good CMA school.
  5. Fu-Jow is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/14/2010 8:42am

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Baguazhang, Tai-Chi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    First of all I would like to reply to other members comments as everyone reads all entries on a given topic. In regards to Tiger Claw always changing with the times. This is just another example of someone who doesn't know what they are talking about. Tiger Claw has never changed. It is a Baguazhang school and always has been, and still is. I think I would know,.. being affiliated with the school, verses some comment from someone who merely has an opinion. Anyone who who holds this opinion of.... change with the times...I assure you they have never been there more than a very short period of time and had never got to the point of learning Baguazhang. If one thinks they are going to come in off the street and learn Bagua without conditioning, basics, and the school getting know who you are...they are dreaming. Self defense techniques can vary but notice I said self defense...Not Bagua. As far as there is no lineage,.. or they are a sham,....blaw blaw blaw. It is probably the cheapest school to attend, and that tells one something already. Hardly someone who is looking for your money. If one was there long enough to form a relationship with Pat ,they would find out about lineage as well. So again,... here is another fine example of BS talk in the martial art world. A lot of people doing just that....talking. In regards to illiterate. Follow the puctuation,.. it slows one down in a sentence so as to read it properly. In regards to competition, one can do there homework and find out the schools' record. Also the comment about 5 months of dormancy????? I only joined this forum yesterday, so if there is a lack of time between my response and someone else,..that would be why. About the topic of training somewhere else. If I had a dollar for every time I have heard someone say,.."I'm so glad after being at other schools that I found this place",....I would have a considerable amount of coin. And yes I am familiar with a lot of the arts as well. . Here is the best way to find the truth about something. Find out by experience... and relationship. That is where trust, respect, and truth is found. That is something no one can take from you when you find it. It is funny how the martial art world speaks of this, but demenstrates the opposite. I'm more than happy to have found this school some 30 years ago and found that the comments some have,.. are from those that never put in the time,.....nor developed a relationship,.. nor had the respect to learn the certain art they supposedly came there to learn. Maybe if one studied what Baguazhang really is, and had the respect coming in, to be taught what they came for... they would know better. (Instead of having some pre-concieved idea as to what something is all about or the method in which it is taught,or any insight what so ever. Or coming in off the street with what they've been taught in the past and having that with them in classs,.. and can you believe it....actually incorporate it on the training floor!!!! That's disrespect from the get go. ) Could you imagine learning Tai-Chi straight sword or elk horn knives without first learning to walk properly and then learn Tai-Chi and Baguazhang. What an ugly sight that would be. Not to mention getting hurt. If one wants to incorporate things from different disciplines on the street....fine,....But to speak about a school they really never dicovered..... is sad. As far as info about myself I think you've probably gained a fair amount already. I don't need to prove anything. It is kind of like having a fast or powerful car. Does one need to prove something to others all the time for their satisfaction, or is knowing what you own good enough. Just as an example, that is why I still have my first car. (A #'s matching big block). If I was to have proved the car for everyone elses satisfaction over the years every time they wanted,.....it would be wrapped around a pole, like everyone else that had one and wished they had not done that. Ever watch Barret-Jackson. Who is laughing at podium time when it really counts???? AS with your comment about hoping as to not coming across rude, I am not coming from a rude response either. I've heard the same stuff as from these other members for 30 years now. There will always be people like that all through life. I would liken it to a Critic. A Critic, is someone who criticises another for something, which they themselves know nothing about nor can accomplish.
  6. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/14/2010 8:49am

    staff
     Style: xingyi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Fu-Jow View Post
    There will always be people like that all through life. I would liken it to a Critic. A Critic, is someone who criticises another for something, which they themselves know nothing about nor can accomplish.
    Troy Aikiman is a football critic and sportscaster who won three Superbowls for the Cowboys.

    George Foreman was a sportscaster and critic who won the Heavy Weight title of the world.....when it still mattered.


    Don't generalize it makes you look stupid.
  7. Snake Plissken is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/14/2010 8:55am

    supporting member
     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Fu-Jow View Post
    I would liken it to a Critic. A Critic, is someone who criticises another for something, which they themselves know nothing about nor can accomplish.
    Oscar Wilde would disagree.
  8. donoraen is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/14/2010 9:01am


     Style: Limalama

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Fu-Jow View Post
    First of all I would like to reply to other members comments as everyone reads all entries on a given topic. In regards to Tiger Claw always changing with the times. This is just another example of someone who doesn't know what they are talking about. Tiger Claw has never changed. It is a Baguazhang school and always has been, and still is. I think I would know,.. being affiliated with the school, verses some comment from someone who merely has an opinion. Anyone who who holds this opinion of.... change with the times...I assure you they have never been there more than a very short period of time and had never got to the point of learning Baguazhang. If one thinks they are going to come in off the street and learn Bagua without conditioning, basics, and the school getting know who you are...they are dreaming. Self defense techniques can vary but notice I said self defense...Not Bagua. As far as there is no lineage,.. or they are a sham,....blaw blaw blaw. It is probably the cheapest school to attend, and that tells one something already. Hardly someone who is looking for your money. If one was there long enough to form a relationship with Pat ,they would find out about lineage as well. So again,... here is another fine example of BS talk in the martial art world. A lot of people doing just that....talking. In regards to illiterate. Follow the puctuation,.. it slows one down in a sentence so as to read it properly. In regards to competition, one can do there homework and find out the schools' record. Also the comment about 5 months of dormancy????? I only joined this forum yesterday, so if there is a lack of time between my response and someone else,..that would be why. About the topic of training somewhere else. If I had a dollar for every time I have heard someone say,.."I'm so glad after being at other schools that I found this place",....I would have a considerable amount of coin. And yes I am familiar with a lot of the arts as well. . Here is the best way to find the truth about something. Find out by experience... and relationship. That is where trust, respect, and truth is found. That is something no one can take from you when you find it. It is funny how the martial art world speaks of this, but demenstrates the opposite. I'm more than happy to have found this school some 30 years ago and found that the comments some have,.. are from those that never put in the time,.....nor developed a relationship,.. nor had the respect to learn the certain art they supposedly came there to learn. Maybe if one studied what Baguazhang really is, and had the respect coming in, to be taught what they came for... they would know better. (Instead of having some pre-concieved idea as to what something is all about or the method in which it is taught,or any insight what so ever. Or coming in off the street with what they've been taught in the past and having that with them in classs,.. and can you believe it....actually incorporate it on the training floor!!!! That's disrespect from the get go. ) Could you imagine learning Tai-Chi straight sword or elk horn knives without first learning to walk properly and then learn Tai-Chi and Baguazhang. What an ugly sight that would be. Not to mention getting hurt. If one wants to incorporate things from different disciplines on the street....fine,....But to speak about a school they really never dicovered..... is sad. As far as info about myself I think you've probably gained a fair amount already. I don't need to prove anything. It is kind of like having a fast or powerful car. Does one need to prove something to others all the time for their satisfaction, or is knowing what you own good enough. Just as an example, that is why I still have my first car. (A #'s matching big block). If I was to have proved the car for everyone elses satisfaction over the years every time they wanted,.....it would be wrapped around a pole, like everyone else that had one and wished they had not done that. Ever watch Barret-Jackson. Who is laughing at podium time when it really counts???? AS with your comment about hoping as to not coming across rude, I am not coming from a rude response either. I've heard the same stuff as from these other members for 30 years now. There will always be people like that all through life. I would liken it to a Critic. A Critic, is someone who criticises another for something, which they themselves know nothing about nor can accomplish.
    Didn't really get the hint that a giant wall of text is a terrible way to convey any point as most readers will ignore it did you?
  9. Fu-Jow is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/14/2010 9:59am

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Baguazhang, Tai-Chi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Hey everyone. I said critic: as in someone who just assumes the position,.... not someone who later becomes one from experience and knowledge. (Knowledge for those of you that don't know......Websters dict: The act of knowing clear perception of truth or fact.) Two totally different avenues. One is informed, one is not. Read what I really said and you will see the people I am talking about are the ill informed. Remember the context of the conversation,........people talking about a school they actually know nothing about. It is too bad but in a couple of responses it already seems this site is for arguementative purposes from that same avenue, instead of people keeping the context of a conversation. That is unfortunate. If one dosen't like the length of a response oh well. You don't like it, don't read it. Someone out there was asking a legitimate question for their own information and he found someone who could give him that info. To bad others have nothing better to do. See ya guys.
  10. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/14/2010 10:12am

    staff
     Style: xingyi

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Fu-Jow View Post
    Hey everyone. I said critic: as in someone who just assumes the position,.... not someone who later becomes one from experience and knowledge.
    I see, making up your own definitions Gotcha.


    (Knowledge for those of you that don't know......Websters dict: The act of knowing clear perception of truth or fact.) Two totally different avenues. One is informed, one is not.
    No, they are both critics. They both fall under the same heading.

    Why didn't you provide the link?

    http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/critic

    a : one who expresses a reasoned opinion on any matter especially involving a judgment of its value, truth, righteousness, beauty, or technique b : one who engages often professionally in the analysis, evaluation, or appreciation of works of art or artistic performances
    2
    : one given to harsh or captious judgment
    http://www.websters-online-dictionar...&sa=Search#922

    1. A person who is professionally engaged in the analysis and interpretation of works of art.[Wordnet]
    2. Anyone who expresses a reasoned judgment of something.[Wordnet]
    3. Someone who frequently finds fault or makes harsh and unfair judgments.[Wordnet]
    4. One skilled in judging of the merits of literary or artistic works; a connoisseur; an adept; hence, one who examines literary or artistic works, etc., and passes judgment upon them; a reviewer.[Websters]
    5. One who passes a rigorous or captious judgment; one who censures or finds fault; a harsh examiner or judge; a caviler; a carper.[Websters]
    6. The art of criticism.[Websters]
    7. An act of criticism; a critique.[Websters].
    Verb 1. To criticise; to play the critic.[Websters]
    2. Base verb from the following inflections: criticing, criticed, critics, criticer, criticers, criticingly and criticedly.[Eve - graph theoretic]
    Adjective 1. Of or pertaining to critics or criticism; critical.[Websters]
    2. Being crucial, ictal or vital. [Eve - graph theoretic]
    3. Being censorious or censorial.[Eve - graph theoretic
    So, you need to designate which one you mean before you make a small out of context comment. Just because you dismiss the ones that DID PRACTICE the art doesn't discount the validity of their comments.

    So,
    Read what I really said and you will see the people I am talking about are the ill informed. Remember the context of the conversation,........people talking about a school they actually know nothing about. It is too bad but in a couple of responses it already seems this site is for arguementative purposes from that same avenue, instead of people keeping the context of a conversation. That is unfortunate. If one dosen't like the length of a response oh well. You don't like it, don't read it. Someone out there was asking a legitimate question for their own information and he found someone who could give him that info. To bad others have nothing better to do. See ya guys.
    I did read what you wrote and you are a being childish. People either didn't practice long enough or they didn't practioce at all. That's is you critiquing others expereince while, not having THEIR EXPERIENCE in the art.

    Wow, you fit your own made up definition. That makes you a hypocrite.
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