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  1. lklawson is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/10/2010 2:35pm


     Style: Bowie

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Whacker View Post
    My google-fu is weak today. Do you remember which ones you saw them in?

    Edit - This might be getting us too far off topic, if ya'll think so then tell me and I'll be quiet.
    I don't remember. I saw them in a technique tree showing attacks and defenses from medieval manuscripts in a class taught by Brad Waller.

    Peace favor your sword,
    Kirk
  2. Just Guess is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/10/2010 11:06pm


     Style: ukemi & tapping out

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Even if the penetration step was avoided in order to protect the knees, surely they must have realized that allowing the back to round instead of keeping it straight must be mechanically weak and actually put them at a slightly higher risk of self injury. Perhaps they appear that way in the picture because of the length of photographic exposure time in that era?
  3. lklawson is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/10/2010 11:56pm


     Style: Bowie

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Just Guess View Post
    Even if the penetration step was avoided in order to protect the knees, surely they must have realized that allowing the back to round instead of keeping it straight must be mechanically weak and actually put them at a slightly higher risk of self injury. Perhaps they appear that way in the picture because of the length of photographic exposure time in that era?
    I suppose that is a possibility, though, personally, I doubt it. The same "bend at the waist" movement is shown in drawings as well as photos and some sources (IMS, Hackenschmit as an example) give specific verbiage describing bending over.

    I suspect that a cultural component played a role. A "strong back" has always been a hallmark of fitness and virility in Western culture (though not necessarily intelligence) and, it may be, that it was just expected that a fit man, engaged in athletic sports, would either have a "strong back" and just be able to man up or would learn quickly why he was a wus and needed to strengthen his back. :)

    For what it's worth, a number of the early variations of the Single do show various states of "knee down" (though not all by a long shot).

    Peace favor your sword,
    Kirk
  4. M1K3 is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/11/2010 8:53am


     Style: submission grappling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Could it be that we are missing the next step in the process which could be gather the knees and drive making it more like a tackle? If you are not attempting a pick up the rounded back is not near as much of an issue.
  5. lklawson is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/11/2010 10:22am


     Style: Bowie

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by M1K3 View Post
    Could it be that we are missing the next step in the process which could be gather the knees and drive making it more like a tackle? If you are not attempting a pick up the rounded back is not near as much of an issue.
    That could be. In some cases, such as the last two drawings the text clearly indicates levering the man over using your head in the pit of his stomach, and the French drawing, the "action" seems to indicate a scooping motion which pulls the legs out and dumps the man.

    On the other hand, the instructional text from some of the other photos, such as the Burns, indicates a "pick up" is in the offing.

    Peace favor your sword,
    Kirk
  6. TheMightyMcClaw is offline
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    MADE OF STEEL!

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    Posted On:
    10/11/2010 10:38am

    supporting member
     Style: MMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I'd hypothesize that it's the same reason old timey Savate players kicked with both hands extended behind them; martial arts have evolved substantially in the past hundred years, and people were just worse at them back in the day.
    The fool thinks himself immortal,
    If he hold back from battle;
    But old age will grant him no truce,
    Even if spears spare him.
  7. jnp is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/11/2010 11:58am

    supporting memberforum leaderstaff
     Style: BJJ, wrestling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by lklawson View Post
    That could be. In some cases, such as the last two drawings the text clearly indicates levering the man over using your head in the pit of his stomach, and the French drawing, the "action" seems to indicate a scooping motion which pulls the legs out and dumps the man.

    On the other hand, the instructional text from some of the other photos, such as the Burns, indicates a "pick up" is in the offing.

    Peace favor your sword,
    Kirk
    [obvious] There are quite a few technically valid methods to performing double leg takedowns. Some involve lifting/scooping, others tripping or "turning the corner" as well as a combination of any two of these three aspects. [/obvious]

    The instructor who taught me the technique in the French drawing called it a Japanese double ironically enough.

    Today a technical leg shot involves bending more at the knees rather than the waist. The spine remains fairly straight while the body bends forward no more than 45 degrees at the waist.

    Include the penetration step and what do you have? Either centuries of refinement distilled by the information age, or a mere re-discovering what works best within the modern rule set?
  8. WhiteShark is offline
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    1% Shark is better than you.

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    Posted On:
    10/11/2010 2:59pm

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     Style: BJJ/Shidokan

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I don't know about the ancient versions but I know the Judo one still works because of the ruleset. You don't have to pass the guard if you put someone straight on their back. I sort of assume that in the absence of quick pin rules a guard is what makes those double legs suck.
  9. CoffeeFan is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/11/2010 3:29pm

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     Style: SAMBO/BJJ/Judo and others

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Mark Hatmaker's book on "No Hold Barred Fighting: Takedowns" actually covers the differences and calls the particular method mentioned the Double Leg Dive. When I get home I'll post what he says on the subject.
  10. CoffeeFan is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/11/2010 6:36pm

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     Style: SAMBO/BJJ/Judo and others

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    OK, this is what I have from Mark Hatmaker's book "NHB: Takedowns".

    Penetration Steps vs Leg Dives

    If You are close enough to clinch, there is not much call to ponder how you got there. If you can't touch your opponent, there is much to consider. There are two schools of thought on how to close this distance and each school comes from Western wrestling. These schools can be called the Penetration Step School and the Leg Dive School, or New School or Old School. A detailed breakdown on the two and a brief subjective commentary on which is "better" follows.

    So, which is better? The answer sounds like a hedge, but it's honest-the school that works best for you in a particular situation is the winner. I use both schools with about 25% more weight toward the Leg Dive. I find that Old School is more sound for defense in the All-in/NHB game and less likely to telegraph intention. I admit a prejudice for Old School, so keep in mind that the last comment is purely subjective. I use both schools and have seen numerous New School shooters use the penetration step exclusively with fantastic success. It is smart to explore both trains of thought and allow athletes to decide for themselves which school they spend the majority of their time pursuing.

    How to do a Double Leg Dive

    1) Dive at your opponent's legs without moving your feet using a
    chain link manner of movement [note: he describes this on the previous page as "As you dive, break your body into chain links- the hands move first, then the head and finally the waist].

    2) From a right lead and with total commitment, dive at your opponent's right lead. Aim your head to the outside of his right knee.

    3) Allow your right shoulder to impact on top of his right thigh. This move will stop your dive.

    Important

    * Do not control your descent-allow his body to break your fall.
    * Place your hands behind his knees.
    * Once your shoulder bangs into him, step your rear foot forward.

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