Early forms of the Double Leg takedown

**lklawson** · Posted On: 10/09/2010 11:28pm

Like the subj says. It's not modern, it's "antique" sources.

(Mods, please let this run for 24 hours or so and then move it the Western Martial Arts forum. - thanks)

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

**Just Guess** · Posted On: 10/10/2010 12:34am

The last two remind me of how some Judoka to morote-gari.

**Conde Koma** · Posted On: 10/10/2010 4:14am

so when did people start moving towards the penetration step version? i mean, i guess this version could work, but there's a reason we're supposed to lift boxes with our legs and not our backs.

**Odacon** · Posted On: 10/10/2010 5:23am

Yeah that's some shocking technique alright, we've come a long way since then.

**lklawson** · Posted On: 10/10/2010 9:27am

Originally Posted by Just Guess

The last two remind me of how some Judoka to morote-gari.

IMS, the instructional text on the last two include driving the head into the gut to act as a lever, pushing him against the pull on the legs.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

**lklawson** · Posted On: 10/10/2010 9:33am

Originally Posted by Conde Koma

so when did people start moving towards the penetration step version? i mean, i guess this version could work, but there's a reason we're supposed to lift boxes with our legs and not our backs.

There's lots of speculation on why it was done this way instead of how it is taught now.

The two most popular theories are:
1) Our understanding of best/most-efficient mechanics on the technique was under-developed and we just hadn't yet discovered how effective we could make it if we included the penetration step and knee-down technique.

2) We deliberately didn't do the penetration and knee-down in order to not damage our own knees/legs/etc. because the surfaces we were wrestling on were far less forgiving.

There are supporting arguments for each, but it's all speculation and I'm not sure exactly how much it should, if at all, impact or inform on modern technique. We shape our arts to fit our physical and social environment, both of which have changed in the last century since the most recent of the above examples.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

**Blue Negation** · Posted On: 10/10/2010 12:52pm

If people are standing really upright and aren't quick with the sprawl like most modern grapplers/wrestlers are, the "leg dive" version can work well - which is why the bent-over morote gari can work in Judo.

The posture of wrestlers has changed a lot, and the modern level-changing double leg developed due to this change in posture (or the other way around?)

**Whacker** · Posted On: 10/10/2010 1:01pm

Originally Posted by Blue Negation

If people are standing really upright and aren't quick with the sprawl like most modern grapplers/wrestlers are, the "leg dive" version can work well - which is why the bent-over morote gari can work in Judo.

The posture of wrestlers has changed a lot, and the modern level-changing double leg developed due to this change in posture (or the other way around?)

Which is another great lead-in question. When/how did we start to see the sprawl really develop? I'd love to see some historical background on that as well.

**lklawson** · Posted On: 10/10/2010 1:53pm

Originally Posted by Whacker

Which is another great lead-in question. When/how did we start to see the sprawl really develop? I'd love to see some historical background on that as well.

I've seen the sprawl (as a defense against leg grabs) illustrated in Medieval manuals.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

**Whacker** · Posted On: 10/10/2010 1:58pm

Originally Posted by lklawson

I've seen the sprawl (as a defense against leg grabs) illustrated in Medieval manuals.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

My google-fu is weak today. Do you remember which ones you saw them in?

Edit - This might be getting us too far off topic, if ya'll think so then tell me and I'll be quiet.