Kimuras!

**DKJr** · Posted On: 9/28/2010 5:08pm

Interesting points Skippy, I'll keep those in mind.

**Ryno** · Posted On: 9/28/2010 7:36pm

I often hit a version of the T-bag from side control or north-south. I'll get grip, tip him up on his side, then I'll slip my lower leg under his neck, and sit my ass down to keep him in place. He'll be pinned between my calf and hamstring, with my ass on the side of his head. (back of his neck in my leg crook) From here, his is very secure. And since he's up on his side, there's a huge range of motion available to finish those guys with flexible shoulders. Then just get it nice and tight and finish.

**ChenPengFi** · Posted On: 9/29/2010 11:24am

Originally Posted by Uncle Skippy

....The biggest thing I've found in finishing the kimura is the realization that the kimura is all about compression and not rotation. The closer the opponent's hand is to his arm pit before applying rotation, the MUCH higher the percentage is in finishing it.

For example (with completely arbitrary numbers), the arm being bent at 90 degrees might be 30-40% finish rate, but taking it to 45 degrees pushes it to 80-90%. The hand touching the arm pit is just about a guaranteed finish.

Once I really focused on compressing instead of rotating, it forced my body into the correct position to finish the kimura from a LOT of different positions.

The key is to get your hips at least as high as their shoulder so that you can PULL their hand to their armpit using your core (bring your elbows to your body instead of arm-wrestling with them). If you get your hips that high, your core will out-muscle their arm every time....

Major pushups.
This made all the difference in the world to me last night.

**BKR** · Posted On: 9/29/2010 2:28pm

Originally Posted by David Koresh Jr.

Nobody likes kimuras?

I use the kimura to sweep like in the video, but I've had more than one black belt show me the kimura from there. Besides that what about from side control. I've been losing it when I step over their head and turn them on their side, you know in the sitting on their head position. Any ideas?

You must not be controlling their entire body well enough if you lose it from that position. In BJJ you can take your time in comps, so take it slow and be patient. We can do the same in judo ne waza randori, but not so much in comps.

I will first tie off their arm using the bottom of the jacket skirt or their belt, usually from kuzure kami shiho gatame or some sort of yoko shiho gatame. Then I slowly work into position to rotate them to their side, sit on their head, THEN I go for the ude garami or transition to Juji Gatame or a yoko sankaku jime (side triangle), depending on how they react.

If you control position is not strong, it will be difficult to get the submission.

Your video would not work, so I don't have anything else to go on.

Ben

**Vince Tortelli** · Posted On: 9/29/2010 8:50pm

Regarding the video:
If you are going to kimura someone from half guard, you need to attack the arm on the same side as you have the leg trapped. It is almost impossible to get the leverage to finish by attacking the far side arm.

@ Uncle Skippy:
Folding the arm in like you discussed seems to give the guy more wiggle room, esp if he has flexible shoulders...at least in my personal experience. It's like trying to finish a keylock up high by the guy's head, I just can't seem to crank enough to get that good "Tap or I break it!" feeling, unlike the good old fashioned right angle bend.

**Uncle Skippy** · Posted On: 9/29/2010 9:02pm

Originally Posted by Vince Tortelli

@ Uncle Skippy:
Folding the arm in like you discussed seems to give the guy more wiggle room, esp if he has flexible shoulders...at least in my personal experience. It's like trying to finish a keylock up high by the guy's head, I just can't seem to crank enough to get that good "Tap or I break it!" feeling, unlike the good old fashioned right angle bend.

I had the Kimura epiphany last year and then immediately had the keylock/armericana epiphany 1 minute later :-P

When you try to finish the keylock up high, the arm is at 90 degrees or more. When you slide it down towards their waist, you are compressing the arm and taking their hand closer to their shoulder/armpit. if the hand is near the shoulder, there is very little rotation needed to finish. You already know this though.

The kimura is the same concept except the arm is bent down. The more compression you put on the arm (the closer the hand is to the armpit), the less rotation is needed to finish. You already knew this too though. :-)

When their arm is at right angle, you can apply a LOT of leverage/torque because, at that angle, it is the longest the lever will get (physics). The problem though is that you actually create space for them to escape (towards you and up) and you are using your arms to finish the sub (lower percentage) instead of your core. It may feel like you can really crank it, but for people who know how to escape even locked kimuras, they will get out and it will get your guard and half guard passed immediately in the process.

When the arm is compressed to less than 90 degrees, you don't need to rotate as much which results in much less space being opened up. You also get better control over their posture (all your weight is closer to the shoulder as opposed to closed to their hand/elbow), and you finish the submission with your core (your arms are close to your body). All of that together means that, although you don't feel like you can really crank on it, you take away escape routes and will still easily get the tap.

I'm more than open to somebody coming in and telling me I'm full of it though :-)

***jnp*** · Posted On: 9/29/2010 9:18pm

Originally Posted by Uncle Skippy

When the arm is compressed to less than 90 degrees, you don't need to rotate as much which results in much less space being opened up. You also get better control over their posture (all your weight is closer to the shoulder as opposed to closed to their hand/elbow), and you finish the submission with your core (your arms are close to your body). All of that together means that, although you don't feel like you can really crank on it, you take away escape routes and will still easily get the tap.

I'm more than open to somebody coming in and telling me I'm full of it though :-)

You're not full of it. You're dead on. This is a detail that some instructors won't mention outside of a private lesson.

Two more key points of any bent armlock. First, for maximum leverage, establish both of your grips on the wrists as close to the hands as you can. This applies to your own wrist as well. Second, elevate (while in side mount, attacking the far arm) your forearm that's grabbing your own wrist to move his upper arm before your start moving his lower arm with the hand that is on his wrist.

**Vince Tortelli** · Posted On: 9/29/2010 9:41pm

I may be misunderstanding what you're trying to tell me....when I was just starting out I had a blue belt tell me to try and touch the guy's hand to his own back when going for kimuras from guard. However, this never seemed to finish anyone, plus some guys would actually lock their hands togather behind the back as a defense.

Or is that a case of OVER compressing the limb in question?

It wasn't until I started moving the arm AWAY from the back that I actually began to get the submission.

***jnp*** · Posted On: 9/29/2010 10:10pm

Originally Posted by Vince Tortelli

I may be misunderstanding what you're trying to tell me....when I was just starting out I had a blue belt tell me to try and touch the guy's hand to his own back when going for kimuras from guard. However, this never seemed to finish anyone, plus some guys would actually lock their hands togather behind the back as a defense.

Or is that a case of OVER compressing the limb in question?

It wasn't until I started moving the arm AWAY from the back that I actually began to get the submission.

You're talking about the relative position of the upper arm during the submission. We're telling you to put his hand into his own armpit, talking about the position of his lower arm. So, two different things.

**ChenPengFi** · Posted On: 9/29/2010 10:13pm

The way i understand this, is with my own elbow at 90 i can touch my mid back with ease,
with the elbow bent more i can hardly touch my scapula,
thus with the elbow bent more you don't have to rotate it very far at all and they are done.
I was able to finish much more easily and was able to finish even when they defended by grabbing hold of their leg/belt as i was pulling at a different angle and using my whole body better.
..and i learned it off the internet, lol...