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  1. DKJr is offline
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    Fasten your seat belts, and prepare for lift off

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    Posted On:
    9/28/2010 1:43am

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Kimuras!

    I recently had two competitions and in both of them I had kimuras which I should've finished, but didn't. So I wanted to re-examine and check for a different perspective.

    I'm particularly looking for kimuras from bottom of half guard, and top side control. As those are the positions I tend to lose them in. For video reference.

    YouTube - Nogi 3rd match absolute

    In this one the reason I abandoned it was cause I heard "Reverse Kimura him" and didn't feel like risking it. But I should've had the kimura finished way before then.

    Kimuras used to be one of my favorite moves, I still get them from closed guard. It's just bottom half and side control I seem to have let them fade from my game.

    Tldr version: Kimura from bottom half or from side. Tell me some ideas, tips, pointers, remind me of key concepts...go!
  2. WhiteShark is offline
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    1% Shark is better than you.

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    Posted On:
    9/28/2010 10:14am

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    You shouldn't be going for Kimuras from bottom half. You won't get one very often on someone with flexible shoulders even if you do everything right. You should instead use the Kimura grip to retain full guard then finish or sweep to top side control. To get the sweep you need to get a butterfly hook. YouTube - Half Butterfly Guard: Kimura Sweep

    Easiest option for me is to use the Kimura grip to make space and go to full guard.
  3. WhiteShark is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/28/2010 1:57pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    How could no one else have replied to this?
  4. DKJr is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/28/2010 2:45pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by WhiteShark View Post
    How could no one else have replied to this?
    Nobody likes kimuras?

    I use the kimura to sweep like in the video, but I've had more than one black belt show me the kimura from there. Besides that what about from side control. I've been losing it when I step over their head and turn them on their side, you know in the sitting on their head position. Any ideas?
  5. WhiteShark is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/28/2010 3:08pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I didn't say you CAN'T get it from bottom half guard. I said you won't get it very often on people with flexible shoulders.

    If you are having trouble from top side its almost always due to your weight distribution. You probably need to sprawl out your support leg more. Unless you're talking about the teabag Kimura that GSP always goes for? If it is the later remember to keep your knees together to isolate the shoulder. If you splay your knees out like GSP then Dan Hardy will escape.
  6. DKJr is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/28/2010 3:13pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by WhiteShark View Post
    I didn't say you CAN'T get it from bottom half guard. I said you won't get it very often on people with flexible shoulders.

    If you are having trouble from top side its almost always due to your weight distribution. You probably need to sprawl out your support leg more. Unless you're talking about the teabag Kimura that GSP always goes for? If it is the later remember to keep your knees together to isolate the shoulder. If you splay your knees out like GSP then Dan Hardy will escape.
    Yes the T-Bag kimura is the one I go for more often. A lot of time when I spin over, they pull their trapped arm down to the floor.
  7. WhiteShark is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/28/2010 3:20pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Do you do it like this?
    YouTube - Kimura from Side Control


    He does a couple things that I consider "wrong". One he creates a TON of space when he steps over. You want to slide your foot behind his head. Two he doesn't put his stepped over knee on the ground. If you drive that knee all the way to the ground and keep your knees together you take away all the room that the guy on bottom needs to escape.
    Last edited by WhiteShark; 9/28/2010 3:25pm at .
  8. DKJr is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/28/2010 3:29pm

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    No and yes. I set up my kimuras from knee ride, same set up I do for the spinning armbar. Grip the triceps with my palm pulling up on their arm, push their head down with my free arm, step my foot over next to their shoulder, squeeze my knees, establish kimura grip. I think I'm not putting my step over leg's knee on the ground like you said. I'll give it a shot, tomorrow.
  9. Uncle Skippy is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/28/2010 3:34pm

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I have a nickname at my gym that is kimura-related because I always appear to be hunting for them. My subs are about 50% kimuras with the other 50% being a mix of arm bars, chokes, etc... For some reason I just see them and go for them; trap the hand, lock it up, cinch it up, and finish.

    The biggest thing I've found in finishing the kimura is the realization that the kimura is all about compression and not rotation. The closer the opponent's hand is to his arm pit before applying rotation, the MUCH higher the percentage is in finishing it.

    For example (with completely arbitrary numbers), the arm being bent at 90 degrees might be 30-40% finish rate, but taking it to 45 degrees pushes it to 80-90%. The hand touching the arm pit is just about a guaranteed finish.

    Once I really focused on compressing instead of rotating, it forced my body into the correct position to finish the kimura from a LOT of different positions.

    The key is to get your hips at least as high as their shoulder so that you can PULL their hand to their armpit using your core (bring your elbows to your body instead of arm-wrestling with them). If you get your hips that high, your core will out-muscle their arm every time.

    From half-guard bottom, I place my bottom leg on the hip of the arm I'm attacking for leverage to yank their hand up to their armpit. I don't care about trying to pop it out from their leg; just drag it straight up their body. My large muscle groups (legs and core) will outpower their grip and pressure.

    If they counter the kimura ('reverse kimura'), they will have to posture up or lean forward to apply pressure. I'll use that opportunity to take their back: push my knee into their tailbone to send them forward and then slip around to their back.

    Of course if I can't finish the kimura I'll use it to control posture, set up sweeps, and especially taking their back. Keep your elbows to your body and move your hips around them. They can't do much when they are eating mat.

    One of my favorite finishes now is the kimura from the back (yeah, weird, I know). For me it is high percentage: hooks in with an over/under, lock up the grip, move my hips up behind their shoulders, same-side foot goes to their hip for leverage, use my core to pull their hand into their armpit (their hand is already high defending the choke). They tap as soon as their hand hits their armpit and I apply very little rotation.

    Sorry, that was long winded. I love the kimura for its versatility.
  10. Uncle Skippy is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/28/2010 4:29pm

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by WhiteShark View Post
    Do you do it like this?
    YouTube - Kimura from Side Control


    He does a couple things that I consider "wrong".
    He does a LOT of things wrong in that video. So much so that I would say that is a video of how to do just about everything incorrectly :-)

    - Locking the hands skips the pressure required to bend the elbow and keep it bent.

    - Thumb position on the trapping arm. He is grabbing, not trapping. Bad.

    - You want it close to his body. If he grabs his belt, it isn't an issue. He is actually locking his arm in a vulnerable position. Go ahead. Grab it.

    - As you already said, his step over the head creates a TON of space. In fact, it creates space in just the right place (in front of the head) for the person on bottom to flatten out (drive bottom shoulder forward) and properly defend.

    - Keeping the elbow at 90 degrees is counter-productive. You need it bent less then 90 degrees so that you KILL the tricep's ability to engage and straighten the arm. Bending it more also dramatically reduces the amount of rotation required to finish the submission (hand in armpit requires almost no rotation).

    - Ari's (top guy's) elbows are not locked to his body and he isn't emphasizing it. He would be finishing the submission with his arms (much lower percentage), not his core (much higher percentage) were he to do it live.

    Sorry, just had to vent. I know you were using it to demonstrate the basic idea of what DK Jr was saying so I hope you don't think I'm criticizing you. :-)
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