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  1. #211

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    Old thread but

    I trained with Nick Sanzo many years ago, during which time we switched over to Renzo. I would teach class at his school on Saturday while Nick (and 2 time Pan Am champ Jay White) would drive down to Renzos. Renzo promoted Nick to purple, and Nick stopped wearing the BB. Our game became much more technical because of Renzo.

    It was my understanding that the first belt, the BB, was in Japanese JJ. In JJJ you must be well rounded, unlike BFF where 95% of the training is on the mat, and the other 5% is horrible take-downs. Of course JJJ are not as good as BJJers are on the ground.

    Nicks school was very heavy on wrestling with several Judo BBs. We had mid west wrestling champions, NY state champs etc. I was a varsity wrestler myself. We also did Kyokushin Karate.

    Nick gave Jay a BB, and Jay gave me a BB. We were all very clear on the fact that the BB should never be worn in a BJJ class. I wear the Blue belt Renzo gave me when I train BJJ/Gi. When I teach Combat Wrestling, and am wearing a GI, I will wear the JJJBB. That is rare because 80% of the time I teach Gi-less.

    I am a bit unsettled if the belt is fake.

  2. #212

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Revistiting the revisiting....but guess what....!!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by kakronen View Post
    Jay I dont know where to begin. But I tried to respectively say no one from TAI KAI promoted you to BJJ Blackbelt and leave it at that. but you are now making me have to air all your dirty laundry,

    First a history. I received my black belt at Tai Kai(let me keep saying this NOT A Brazilian BLack BELT NOT A BJJ Blackbelt in 1996-have the certificate on wall). We started training with Allan Goes in 1997 going to california. He eventually promoted us to purple belts. He then moved back to Brazil. In 2001 we started training with marcos Santos. 2001 i WAS promoted to Brown Belt. in 2004 I started training with the guys from Balance Studios. Eventually 2005 I joined Team Balance. I was promoted to brazilian Jiu Jitsu BLACK BELT in 2007.

    IN 1998 Jay Russel did a superfight with Jordan Damon. He liked our team and in 1999 Jay hooked up with Tai Kai. Jay was already wearing a Black Belt in his school he was teaching at after he and Nick Sanzo split for the first time. He became part of our team. to this day I can say I have never rolled once with Jay russell. Jay already had his black belt on and we had ours(NOT BJJ Black Belts a different style-I even had japanese writing on my belt-LOL one of those thick black belts with gold writing-hmmm doesnt sound brazilian to me LOL)

    eventually the union did not last. At this point Jay paid money for a Carlson Gracie Self defense course that was being offered in Black Belt magazine. He got his videos and put up the certificate. It was a really cheesy ad in black Belt magazine. This is the certificate he told students he was a black belt in BJJ with.I really wanted to keep this out but Jay has given me no choice. Jay has some issues and problems at this time. big ones that do not exemplify a martial artist in any way. I dont want to get in to it on here but email me for info. He had to close his school down. He owed a lot of people money when he closed his school down. I would run into people at tourneys who were former students that he owed money to or ripped off etc.

    I saw Jay again in 2002 in a tourney in NAGA battle at the Beach. Ok not 10 years ago 8 years ago.my fault (LOL). He was now training at a school with Charlie Ferria. Charlie Sorry to bring you into this.Charlie owned a school and was a purple belt with Caique. Jay was a student at the school. Charlie told me Jay wore a Blue Belt at the school(that was his only official BJJ rank that was told to me). that did not last and Jay went on the deep end again. Charlie then began training with machados at the time and he kept developing his school. Charlie tried to help Jay out but Jay had some issues

    I did not hear anything about Jay until a few years ago. A few years ago I saw on myspace a page that said Black Belt by Jordan Damon. I talked to Jordan about it, He said you know Jay and his craziness and drama. I said you should tell him to take it off cause it makes you look bad. Jordan was a brown belt at the time. Jay even put together highlight films etc. Jordan said he talked to Jay about it. we always laughed about it. Jordan probably said to him one time. you are good you should be a black belt./ which is a comment that people say sometimes. Only an idiot would hear that comment and make himself a black belt. Jay kept posting it on myspace about jordan, we laughed but honestly didnt have time for this internet drama. Jay contacted me a few times on myspace and facebook but never wrote him back because I didnt want any of this crazy drama. All of a sudden years later he is a BJJ black Belt and has promoted BJJ Blackbelts.

    That is crazy. First I dont see how Jay does not understand the difference between BJJ black Belts and other styles. I don't know if Jay really believes himself or is just lying. I know I have ceritifcates from my oringal Tai Kai Japense black belt, My BJJ machado brown belt and my BJJ black belt which almost 99.99 people have when they get black belts.

    I really did not want to air this dirty laundy but Jay left me no choice. Jay please don't make me air even more information from other people in the Albany area. Just man up and state you made a mistake and was never a BJJ black Belt, no ceriticate. You may have a black belt in something else but no BJJ Blackbelt. If people like you and everything is fine, they will understand.

    Please anyone have any questions feel free to email me at....or even if his employers would like to talk to me personally please call me 315-395-0910 I will be happy to talk with them at length about this situation.

    JaY I tried to keep it civil and basic saying you were talented but was never promoted to BJJ black belt by tai Kai but to clear things up, I had to post this

    KEN

    OK, I came back and finally found the post by Ken, which clears everything up, 100% But here is the CRAZY part!. Let me preface this by saying that one should never, ever BS about lineage. As mentioned, I received a BB from Jay White, who received a BB from Nick Sanzo, who got a BB from Jay Russel. Nick was always very clear that the BB was in Japanese JJ, and I was also always very clear about that fact.

    But here is the crazy part. In terms of self defense, the Fake BB, or the Hybrid BB would knock the snot out of the BJJ BB in a real fight. At least the Hybrid system I have which may be different from TAI KAi. I will tell you this, the Tai Kai guys always looked very good, and this was before they were a BJJ school. I barely beat one of their guys in a tourney, lol.

    At Nicks school, we wrestled twice a week. Real wrestling, just like HS/College wrestling. And we also trained stand up, Kyokushin Karate twice a week.

    Students at our school looked very similar to he old school Gracie JJ with high level wresting.

    Personally, I added Boxing, FMA's and MT to the mix, but I digress.

    And again, it bears repeating that there was tremendous deception that deserved to get ferreted out. But to the OP, if, of course I could go back 7 years, if you want to learn self defense, go to the Fake Black Belt School. The sport guy will never get you to the ground in a real fight and you will beat the crap out of him on the feet. If by some miracle he does get you to the ground you will destroy him with head buts and illegal strikes. Trust me, I have trained with dozens of high level sport guys.

    I know that is not the issue, but that is the ironic fact.

  3. #213
    Raycetpfl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by preschol View Post
    But here is the crazy part. In terms of self defense, the Fake BB, or the Hybrid BB would knock the snot out of the BJJ BB in a real fight
    Video please?


    I am sure I could arrange it with a Balance Affiliate or at Balance HQ? They are in the Tri-state area.

    Those Old School Gracie Guys? Relson Gracie Black Belts that were in the Gracie Academy Instructor Program in the 90's.
    Last edited by Raycetpfl; 4/05/2017 5:28pm at .

  4. #214

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    Hi Ray,

    My name is Sean Reed. I moved away from Albany 14 years ago. I live in Texas now

    The only videos I have are some instructional videos, some on my FB page. I have some boxing material I will be putting up soon. I have some self defense ground oriented material, a lot of my combat wrestling system and Kali/Dumog. I will link you, but they are very boring.

    I have always been happy to take challenge matches. And we do have rules (no biting eye gouging etc) but I am an old and frail man now (54) and would be very little challenge for someone like you. My old training partner, Jay White, is still in Albany. I got my fake black belt from him, and he got his fake belt from Nick Sanzo. Jay and Nick only wear their Purples from Renzo ( have a great story about Jay tapping Ricardo when Ricardo first got here fro Brazil...Ricardo took off his BB and put a Brown on)....awesome guy! I am just a lowly Renzo blue although I was 7-1 in NAGA.

    When I teach I rarely wear a belt. I tell people my black is in JJJ, not BJJ. I think I have worn it twice.

    I mention Jay because he is in Albany. He does not train anymore, but in a real fight he will beat any pure sport BJJ BB you put in front of him. We can discuss that later

    I know we are getting off the main point a bit. However, in theory we are not. Here is why my comments are relavent.

    It is legitimacy. WE have established clearly, that Jay Russell lied. Jay had big problems and I hope he worked them out.

    But the Illegitimacy is there. Why is that a problem? 25 years ago here was the problem (and this has always been the problem for all of human history). You pay, give your time and blood and sweat and tears to learning a martial art, and that martial art should be what it is advertised to be, correct? I had full facial reconstructive surgery, LOL. We have all paid our dues.

    Can we all agree that is the core problem? Yes, are we on the same page here? That is the purpose of this forum, I believe, yes?

    So people sign up for GJJ or BJJ, thinking they are getting the martial art that dominated the early UFC's. They sign up thinking they are getting the martial art honed on the violent streets of Brazil (much more violent than the US). They think they are getting the martial art designed to win a real street fight, a fight with no rules where your life is on the line.

    I know people may just want the sport, but everyone I know started for that reason. Please correct me if I am wrong. That is why I signed up.

    So the question is clear, people should get what they pay for, yes?
    Last edited by preschol; 4/05/2017 9:48pm at .

  5. #215
    Raycetpfl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by preschol View Post

    I mention Jay because he is in Albany. He does not train anymore, but in a real fight he will beat any pure sport BJJ BB you put in front of him. We can discuss that later
    Since you randomly dragged his name into this. He was submitted by sport grappler Jeff Monson twice in mma. Also according to his bio he trained with Renzo from the beginning of training martial arts. Does he claim your JJJ style? He doesn't seem to publicly .....so yeah there's that.


    So people sign up for GJJ or BJJ, thinking they are getting the martial art that dominated the early UFC's. They sign up thinking they are getting the martial art honed on the violent streets of Brazil (much more violent than the US). They think they are getting the martial art designed to win a real street fight, a fight with no rules where your life is on the line.

    I know people may just want the sport, but everyone I know started for that reason. Please correct me if I am wrong. That is why I signed up.

    So the question is clear, people should get what they pay for, yes?
    Have you told Team Renzo your thoughts on BJJ?
    Have you told Gary Tonon,Eddie Cummings, Gordon Ryan and Travis Stevens that people trained in your jiu-jitsu style would destroy them?

  6. #216

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    I am more than happy to talk about individuals, but you are missing my main point: Sport BJJ, if sold as a complete self defense art (as it once was) IS Fraudulent. Thus, were are ferreting out fraud in order to maintain fraud. THAT is the problem!

    Jay Russell lied. That is bad. I always knew the BB was a Japanese belt. We sure as heck trained differently, with much heavier conditioning. If a purely sport BJJ program passes itself off as more than an ASPECT (about 20%) of self defense, they are lying. Now if they say "hey, you need some cross training..."OK. But many don't.

    Renzos school (and Ralphs, and Ricksons..trained there) were very different from modern sport BJJ. Ralph had a boxing coach in the class to work with people. Rickson's students were the biggest nuthuggers ever, but to Ricksons credit the curriculum was heavily self defense. I will get to Renzo in a minute.

    Modern BJJ has lost wrestling, Judo, striking defense and all closing the distance skills. We used to spend a TON of time on those drills. On the ground we worked striking and head butts. Sport competition was scored to simulate a real fight. You got big points for knee on belly because that is the place to be in a street fight. I can finish you, and see your friends coming up.

    Today, everyone lives in a fantasy world. I ask guys all the time "what are you doing for standup, wrestling, boxing, MT?" They respond "No, I just train the ground, I know I will figure out a way to get the fight there if I have to."

    I am very sorry. You won't. Not if the other guy has 6 months of wrestling and 6 months of boxing. Or is bigger and stronger.

    So, back to Renzo, yes, my argument applies to Renzo, Matt, and all the great fighters that come out of Renzos. For starters, watch Renzos' early fight against the Dutch Guy Strikers. Renzo Rained down elbows to the back of the head and a couple of head butts from half guard if I am correct. We ALWAYS trained that sort of material, always. Giving up your back was tantamount to suicide back then.

    They are absolutely nothing like what you see at 95% of all sport BJJ schools today. Nearly all training is from the knees or the butt scoot. And the few times takedowns are trained, they are horrible. Actually, worse than horrible. Renzo did not have great takedowns, but they were a million % better than what you see today. And I will tell you a little secret. Renzo trained a lot of MT. Renzo has a great deal of respect for wrestlers (unlike sport BJJ guys) and was emphatic about all his guys, like Matt Serra, training with Rey Longo. Matt spent a MASSIVE amount of time working his Judo and striking. I will be honest. None of us ever that Matt would get good at striking EVER. He was so bad at first, but Matt is an AMAZING guy. Renzos guys have tons of stand up training.

    back to Jay, actually, first time Jay was injured against Jeff, it was a DQ. I would say that losing to Jeff Monson is no shame. Jay was poorly handled, and he had the bad habit of squaring up and brawling when he was hit. I've caught Jay my share of times (although he would whup me now, see the frail old man part...Jay is a 290 lb powerlifter now). With all due modesty, my boxing is technically better than Jay's.

    Jeff Monson is nothing similar to modern sport BJJ. He beats plenty of sport BJJ BB, but this is not about Monson, who is also an accomplished wrestler. That is my point.

    I don't know any of the other people you mention, but like I said, sport BJJ has lost its way, IMO.

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