Yup. Most of t3h n00bs in my judo club end up throwing themselves because of bad kuzushi.
Originally Posted by Gidi
This post was about kuzushi, just not as you understand it...
Originally Posted by Gidi
The thing about kuzushi is that coaches reduce it to a mere pushing and pulling action and the solution to every beginner's throwing problems is always 'moar kuzushi'!!!!!!!!!!
Actually a beginners problems rarely stem from lack of kuzushi alone, what actually is at issue is a series of underlying systemic errors in the entire action, position and intention of the beginner attempting a throw.
There's a reason I began with these two things - the triangle and tsurikomi.
What beginners lack, which then feeds into their inability to correctly off balance a partner or opponent is control over themselves and control over their partners.
So I'm giving your a series of conceptual tools and physical examples that will increase your control over yourself and uke and therefore increase the effectiveness of your kuzushi. There is no magic bullet or even say 5 pieces of advice I can give you that will fix your kuzushi
If you don't have the skills to position yourself correctly in relation to your partner then you won't be able to control your partner. If you don't even know how to control your partner even if you were in the correct position to do so then, well, you're completely stuffed.
There is no way anyone could write a 'how do kuzushi' post.
The concept of the triangle is to teach you control over yourself. To position yourself correctly relative to your partner and to understand the importance of controlling the space between you and your partner.
Tsurikomi is what enables you to have control over your partner, however, you can't apply tsurikomi effectively unless you have control over yourself and can position yourself effectively.
Kuzushi is not just a matter of pull more or push more or pull/ push what where and how. Plus rep to whoever can spot the important part of that sentence...
If you aren't correctly positioned in relation to your partner then your attempts at kuzushi won't be effective.
If you don't have the ability to effectively control your partner then your attempts at kuzushi won't be effective. This is why I talked at length at elbow management positioning the tsurite in the pocket and using the hikite properly because doing these things right gives you control over your partner and therefore makes your kuzushi actions effective.
Now I deliberately started explaining this in a static situation because it gives you the biggest margin for error trying to learn all this on the move is very very difficult for adult beginners, which I assume most beginners on bullshido are.
Next week I will post about how to control yourself and your uke in a dynamic moving situation.
Excellent stuff, Thanks to judoka_uk especially for both the initial post and also for responding to other peoples points in a sensible and constructive way. Thanks also for those who chose to post more informative comments than this outbreak of nuthugging. Ahem. It's like the internet turned its back for a second and we managed to get a page and a bit of info out there without a pissing contest breaking out.
As you were, and rest assured that I'm going to study all the posts made here very closely with a view to reducing the overall shitness of my judo.
Thank you you cant believe how helpfull that post and many of your others are! The HCG i was refering to is the same you described. I will make an effort to use the lapel grip instead of relying on the easier HCG in the future. Thanks again, this thread really needs to be made into a sticky.
Judoka UK's posts and replies reinforce my own view of teaching Judo to adult/teen beginners.
1.) You have to teach how to grip the judogi, posture, and movement before just showing someone with no experience O Goshi and saying, "Here, do this, put your hand here pull here step here etc etc ad infinitum". Trying to get someone to do a throw who can't control their own body (posture and movement), and then expecting them to correctly control their own PLUS uke is borderline insanity.
2.) Then, expecting two total beginners to be able to be decent uke for each other makes even less sense, as in JudokaUK's example of the one uke stepping around the other. In my experience, people learn and stick with Judo in spite of how they are trained/taught.
3.) Throwing beginners in to full on (or any sort) of randori almost from the start of their training, or "well, your ukemi is ok now, go for it", is another pet peeve of mine. You end up with a major spaz fest, people getting injured, beat up, and frustrated unless they are the biggest, strongest beginner in the class. It is beneficial for beginners to "randori" with much more experienced judoka who can guide them and take falls for them, and throw/pin them as appropriate with great control.
4.) Static vs moving: I teach beginners to throw with movement as soon as possible. And I'm talking about adults, not little kids. With a good uke, it's entirely possible. Some can do it almost right away, but you have to build a base of simple tai sabaki, gripping, and movement for everyone regardless of natural coordination/talent.
5.) Questions on kuzushi? It can't be practically separated from any individual throw, as each throw has it's own unique aspects that require subtle shifts in body alignment...as JudokaUK noted, it boils down to control of your own body first so you can control/guide uke body. You learn a throw, your learn the proper body alignment for that throw with appropriate movement, and you then will have the kuzushi, all other things being equal. For example, compare Osoto Gari to O Goshi. Totally different body throwing principle and thus different body control/alignment needed.
5.) Which brings me to what throws are appropriate for beginners to learn, with the goal of LONG TERM success/excellence (for the given individual) in Judo. Given that beginners have low levels of body control, on average, (for specific Judo purposes), it makes sense to start with simple movements first (gripping, posture, tai sabaki, movement) and the simplest throws that require the least control by tori (and uke), and that transition well to said "simplest" throws under simplest circumstances.
This means throws in which both feet remain on the ground, that can be done with simple turning movments that require minimum complicated changes in posture, and allow maximum control of uke.
I use O Goshi and Seoi Nage. For Ashi Waza, I use modified Ouchi Gari and Kouchi Gari (yes, those require balance on one leg to some degree, but do not require supporting both uke and tori weight by tori, and require no turning like Uchi Mata or Harai Goshi).
You will note the lack of any sort of sutemi waza.
Long term success in Judo is determined by how well you absorb/master the basics (kihon in Japanese). The whole process builds upon itself over time. Some people learn faster than others-everyone is on their own time line, in general.
I write this in support of what JudokaUK has written. He is writing about the basics, kihon, of Judo, and so am I.
Judo_UK, your post on gripping position reminded me of something my sensei once told me on where to get the lapel grip. He said that you should be able to easily place the palm of your hand in the crease made by the shoulder joint and the collar bone. That way if you need to push on the shoulder it won't slide off easily, and if you have to pull the forearm and elbow slides easily under the armpit.
Awesome tips!! Is that Minami / Nakanishi in the clips?
Holy crap, this post is amazingly helpful. There is a dearth of really good, insightful analysis of proper judo technique out there, and your post shows not only that you have skill and expertise, but that you are able to reflect on that skill, analyze, and communicate really good pointers. I've been in judo for a few years, and feel like my skill level is still stagnated at the same novice stage I was at a year or two ago, partly because nobody at the club I practice at analyzes the mechanics; partly because we only meet a paltry one time per week; and partly because the instructors are stuck in an old-fashioned mindset of equating calisthentics and endless static uchikomi (and not moving uchikomi or "half speed" randori as opposed to all-out randori) with learning judo. In other words, there is not enough good, basic insight, analysis, and instruction of the basics. In three years, nobody has explained the proper footwork, how important it is to ingrain stepping patterns into muscle memory, and ingrain proper tsurite / hikite movement into muscle memory BEFORE throwing beginners head long into randori where they flail, stomp, and kick around. Again, awesome post; I look forward to your next post on this topic (don't forget!).
By the way--the clips in your post are fantastic...especially the morote-seoi and ippon-seoi nage....is that Minami and Nakanishi, who authored the Seoi-nage masterclass book? The clips are awesome because it is very helpful to have visuals to go with the Masterclass book photos. I've analyzed that book countless times, dissecting various sequences of photos, trying to answer my questions but always wishing there was a video to go with it! Where did you get that clip? Is it available for sale anywhere?
Last edited by learnedhand; 9/21/2010 11:44am at .
Reason: Added title
Awesome tips!! Is that Minami / Nakanishi in the clips?
[Sorry for duplicate post....can't figure out how to delete entire post]
Holy crap, your post is amazingly helpful! ....
Last edited by learnedhand; 9/21/2010 11:43am at .
Reason: accidental duplicate post
Thanks, glad you found the material useful. Its something that should be taught from day one and continually emphasised but sadly is often neglected in most Judo clubs.
Originally Posted by learnedhand
The Tai otoshi video featues exclusively Nobuyuki Sato. The Seoi nage video has, I believe, Shozo Fujii performing Morote seoi nage and the Ippon seoi nage is of course performed by Hidetoshi Nakanishi of Seoi nage masterclass and Human Weapon fame.
Other clips I used come from the 'Judo Le perfectionnement' series and feature Hiroshi Katanishi as the tori. These videos are a truly excellent resource if you understand how to use them properly. As well as from the 'Judo kihon' series of videos from the 'kuldinE' youtube channel which feature Tadashi Sato.
Sounds like a good guideline, though of course as BKR and I discussed gripping position is affected by the height of the tori and uke etc...
Originally Posted by Just Guess
Originally Posted by judoka_uk
I noticed that when the guys pulling to create kuzushi his arm that gripping the collar is coming up horizontally is this incorrect? Should it remain vertical?
I Hear alot of people say about the HCG and other unorthodox grips that they are a quick fix and wont work against highly skilled opponents but the russian judoka and judoka from the ex soviet states fight with HCG and belt grips etc and do well with them. Why do they use these grips if there less effective? Is it a cultural thing due to the various wrestling styles around that region?
Originally Posted by judoka_uk
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