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  1. Tyrsmann is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/17/2010 11:30pm


     Style: Fiore

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Interesting vid from the NYHFA

    YouTube - Body Mechanics Part 1: Timings

    Found this while watching vids of Longsword bouting.
    It's a body mechanics vid talking about timing with the longsword.

    I train mostly the second timing. Though I do try to add the third and first timings to my training every now and than just for it's own sake.
  2. Permalost is offline
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    pro nonsense self defense

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    Posted On:
    9/18/2010 12:32pm

    supporting member
     Style: FMA, dumbek, Indian clubs

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    In kung fu and tai chi, we would step first then strike to emphasize the use of the body, but I've since adopted the other ones almost to the exclusion of the third. I didn't really get why you wouldn't be able to reach someone who's not moving because of differences in timing- that seems more like a distancing/spacing issue. I think that the first timing is very undervalued by some people with a TMA background, since they often emphasize a good stance and starting at your root, but when you have a weapon you don't need a ton of power and you can develop power in transition instead of from a fixed stance (this is one of the things I've been doing in sysytema).
  3. kg6cig is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/20/2010 7:18pm


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrsmann View Post
    YouTube - Body Mechanics Part 1: Timings

    Found this while watching vids of Longsword bouting.
    It's a body mechanics vid talking about timing with the longsword.

    I train mostly the second timing. Though I do try to add the third and first timings to my training every now and than just for it's own sake.
    It's interesting that he talks about the Liechtenauer tradition, and the fact that the masters tell us to use the first time- the "true time" as Silver calls it- and then largely ignores their advice.

    Does anyone know any place in the Liechtenauer method where we are told to _not_ follow the blow?

    My one observation on his statement about range is that I find there to be no difference in range regardless of the timing used, so I don't know how he is acheiving that result. I can tell you that his left foot is farther forward in the last two than in the first.

    Regards,

    Joseph
  4. captainzorikh is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/23/2010 12:49pm


     Style: grappling, swordfighting

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by kg6cig View Post
    It's interesting that he talks about the Liechtenauer tradition, and the fact that the masters tell us to use the first time- the "true time" as Silver calls it- and then largely ignores their advice.

    Does anyone know any place in the Liechtenauer method where we are told to _not_ follow the blow?

    My one observation on his statement about range is that I find there to be no difference in range regardless of the timing used, so I don't know how he is acheiving that result. I can tell you that his left foot is farther forward in the last two than in the first.

    Regards,

    Joseph
    I think the difference in range is a result of where in the step the blow occurs. If your sword has swung before your step is completed, it will not hit a target as far away as if you swing the sword after your step is completed. In the latter case you have traveled further before the sword hits its target than in the former.
  5. SBG-ape is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/23/2010 4:03pm


     Style: Jiu-jitsu & HEMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    So, it's not so much a difference in the range of the swing as it is in the point at which the swing lands? Is that what you're saying?
  6. hurr2323 is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/24/2010 11:14am


     Style: Brazilian Jiu Jitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I know it's not quite the same thing, but in my experience in the japanese sword arts it is almost entirely the second timing. Especially Kendo. A way a lot of sensei teach beginners is telling them to imagine a string tied between their hands and right(lead) foot. When the hands move, the foot moves ( although this gets confusing because the foot should move forward and not up). The goal being that the foot plants at the exact moment the sword makes contact. At this point you would sink your hips to get a powerful cut

    In iaido there is less explosive forward movement and the cuts are coming from all angles, not just straight up and down, but the principles are the same. The first timing is actually used quite a bit but the focus is not on the feet as much as the hip itself. You can stand in place and cut or step in and cut, but you must make sure to move your hips with the blow. If you strike downwards you sink you hip just a little as you cut, adding body weight to the blow. If its a turning cut, you open your hips in that direction. The hand motion is critical too, but that's another topic.
    Last edited by hurr2323; 9/24/2010 11:30am at .
  7. kg6cig is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/26/2010 4:28pm


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by captainzorikh View Post
    I think the difference in range is a result of where in the step the blow occurs. If your sword has swung before your step is completed, it will not hit a target as far away as if you swing the sword after your step is completed. In the latter case you have traveled further before the sword hits its target than in the former.
    True- but I don't think that "follow the blow" means "cut, then step." I think it means get your sword moving before you get your body moving. When I strike, my foot starts moving at about the time the sword (or pollaxe, for that matter) is just about vertical. The foot arrives at just about the same time- so there's little or no compromise in range.

    But again, does anyone know of any case where the German masters say "you know, that following the blow thing, don't do that in this situation"?

    Regards,

    Joseph
  8. nyhfa is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/28/2010 1:32pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by kg6cig View Post
    True- but I don't think that "follow the blow" means "cut, then step." I think it means get your sword moving before you get your body moving. When I strike, my foot starts moving at about the time the sword (or pollaxe, for that matter) is just about vertical. The foot arrives at just about the same time- so there's little or no compromise in range.
    For that to be true, you sword or poleaxe would have to be moving very slowly. Because your hands can move (with the aid of your lower body) so much faster than your feet, the timing you use is intimately tied to your range. There is no arguing this, it is a fact of human anatomy. If you start your strike and do it as fast as you can, there is no way you can step deeply in time to get your sword to your opponent if he is at a certain distance. If he is closer, and a small step will do, you can. If you start to step first, then you have time to step deeply and reach him. Try it.

    You can cheat this by slowing down your sword. If your sword is moving slowly, then you have enough time to step deeply.

    But again, does anyone know of any case where the German masters say "you know, that following the blow thing, don't do that in this situation"?
    First, if they are talking about timing in that "follow the blow with the foot thing," then why are all of the listed consequences about reach and balance and not one mentions timing?

    Second, if you follow the lessons as gospel every time, you can't do many of the techniques in the system. For example, in the begining of Von Danzig and Ringeck it says you must NEVER just stand there and watch to see what your opponent does. Then, at the end, it tells you about Sprechfenster, which is the noblest and the best. To do it, you stand in long point and...you got it...wait and see what the opponent does. :)

    So if someone had not yet read up to Sprechfenster and saw a video about it, that person might also ask, "Ok, but can someone tell me where Liechtenauer says to just wait and see what your opponent does? Because right here on page one he says not to..."

    Or...do you hold more than four guards? Because you're told not to quite early on. Though even before that, you're told to hold others.

    To answer your question, there are many places in the treatise where you are told "steep deeply to his left and strike a (whatever)." There is also artwork that shows this. Some is in Talhoffer, some in Hans Medel and other places I can't remember off the top of my head.

    Most importantly though, three timings are a fact of biology and physics. You can argue that two of them do not exist in the Liechtenauer system, and your argument could be a logical one. My only response to that woudl be, if only the first timing exists in Liechtenauer, then it is a pretty shitty system of combat and we'd be better off studying something else.
  9. willaume is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/31/2010 8:37am


     Style: aikido, medieval fencing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    [QUOTE=nyhfa;2460190]

    First, if they are talking about timing in that "follow the blow with the foot thing," then why are all of the listed consequences about reach and balance and not one mentions timing?

    QUOTE]
    Well of course they mention timing.
    What about
    Every weapon has is distance and his measure (aka timing or rhythm)
    Von, narch, indes
    And of course the the narchraisen and aussernemhen.

    I believe that you are expecting the manual to be like a modern “fencing for dummy”.
    They just do not conceptualise the same way we conceptualize now.
    The point of the manual is not a description of fencing as such. It is how to fence to achieve your goal, i.e. break the distance, create a dominant position maintain it until you finish him.
    To achieve that you need to put all the generic advices of the manual together regardless the masterhaw you are using.

    That being said you are asking the right question.

    If we start with the concept of the vor indes nach, it is a much a concept of time than it is a concept of state you find yourself in.

    To be in the vor you need two conditions
    That your blow lands first
    And that he must parry. That is that he has no other choices but move his sword to intercept yours I.e. if he can void it is not good enough.

    So the sequence of fencing is not
    Vorch, indes nach; repeat and rinse
    But is either
    Vor, vor, vor and so on until arrrrrrrrgh
    Or
    Narch indes vor , vor, vor and so on until arrrrrrrrgh

    Now ringeck tells us in 14v that
    Item, you are to mark: everything that you fence, that you drive with all the strength of your body. And strike him in approaching (nahent=nahend) to the head or to the body. So that he cannot change through (see durch wechslen) from your point. And with the binding of the sword you should not forget/miss the Engagement/attack at the nearest opening as it will be described hereafter in the fives strikes and other pieces.

    To achieve that as you said you need to be at a distance that is quite close to your opponent.
    To get to that distance you will have to get with the striking range of you opponent.


    You need to bear that in mind when you interpret.

    Das ist der text von vil gu°tter gemainer lere des langen schwerts.
    Willtu kunst schowen, sich linck gen vnd recht mitt hawen. Vnd linck mitt rechtem, ist, das du starck gerst fechten.
    Glosa.
    Merck, das ist die erst lere des (12 r )langes schwertz; das du die hew von bayden sytten recht solt lernen hawen, ist, das du annders starck vnd gerecht fechten wilt. Das vernym allso: wenn du wilt howen von der rechten sytten, so sich, das dein lincker fu°ß vor stee. Häustu dann den ober haw von der rechten sytten, so folg dem haw nach mitt dem rechten fu°ß. Tu°st du das nicht, so ist der how falsch vnd vngerecht, wann deinv (12 v ) rechte syten pleibpt dahinden. Darum ist der haw zu° kurtz vnd mag sein rechten gang vndersich zu der rechten anderen sytten vor dem lincken fu°ß nicht gehaben. Des glychen: wenn du hawst von der lyncken sytten vnd dem haw nicht nachfolgest mitt dem lincken fu°ß, so ist der haw och falsch. Darum so merck, von welcher sytten du haust, das du mitt dem selbigen fu° ß dem haw nachfolgest. So magstu mitt der sterck alle dein stuck gerecht trybenn. Vnnd also süllen alle andere hew (13 r )och gehawen werden

    This is the text about many good common lessons of the long sword
    To show the art, you’re left going/towards and right with the strike. And the left with the right is how you fence strongly.
    Glose
    Mark, this is the first lesson of the long sword; that you are to learn how to strike correctly your blow from either side, so that you will fence with another/different force and precision. This goes like so: when you want to strike from the right side, be so that you left foot is in front. Strike you then with an oberhaw so your right foot follows after with the blow. Do not do this and the blow will be false and wrongful. As your right side stays behind it makes the blow shorter and it cannot have its rightful course under itself over the left foot (auf der anderer saiten von= over). On the same line when you strike from your left side and your left foot does not follow the blow, this is blow false as well. Hence mark, whatever the side you strike from, that you should follow the strike with the corresponding foot. So you may deliver your strike with strength and precision. And so all the other strikes should be delivered.


    So yes you are right, there is only one “timing”. But you are missing two capital point this strictly only concerns what to do when you strike not when you move to strike and that you need to break the distance.

    Silver mentions the true place. Using your second and third timing you will be countered all the times either by one handed release or slipping (in the Wyde understanding of the terms) or to be Zhroned to ablivion.
    As well you do not have the possibility to change or move after the blow until you have re-gather yourself.

    Here is a a video abou the Zwerch that should help to understand what I mean.

    YouTube - Breaking von Tag
  10. willaume is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/31/2010 9:22am


     Style: aikido, medieval fencing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    [QUOTE=nyhfa;2460190]

    Second, if you follow the lessons as gospel every time, you can't do many of the techniques in the system. For example, in the begining of Von Danzig and Ringeck it says you must NEVER just stand there and watch to see what your opponent does. Then, at the end, it tells you about Sprechfenster, which is the noblest and the best. To do it, you stand in long point and...you got it...wait and see what the opponent does. :)

    QUOTE]
    Hello again
    This you are referring too. I believe

    47 r Von dem Sprechfenster.
    Sprechfenster mach: stand frylich, besiche sin sach. Schlage in, das er schnappe. Wer sich vor dir zühet abe, ich sag dir für ware: sicher schützt kain man one fare! Haustu recht vernommen, zu° schlage mag er klain kummen.
    Glosa.
    Mörck: das haisset das sprechfenster: wenn er dir mitt hewen oder versetzenn an das schwert bindet, so belib starck auß gerechten armen mit der langen schniden am schwert, mitt dem ort im vor dem gesichte, vnd stand freylich vnd besicht sin sach, was er gegen dir tryben wöll.
    Item, schlecht er vom schwert umb mitt ainem oberhaw dir zu° der anderen sytten, so bind mitt storck sinem haw nach (47 v) mitt der langen schniden, im obeb ein zu° dem kopff. Oder schlecht er vmb mitt der zwer, so fall im mitt dem obern schnitt in die arme. Oder zuckt er sin schwert an sich vnd will dir vnnden zu° stechen, so raise im nach an dem schwert vnd setz im oben an.
    Item, oder will er sich vom schwert nicht abziechen, noch umbschlachen, so arbait du am schwert mit dem duplieren vnd sunst mit anderen stucken - darnach, als du enpfindest die waich vnd die hört am schwert.

    From the spechtfenster
    Do the sprechfenster : stand boldly (frylich= reidlich ?), examin his argument, stike at what he twitches (iE zucken). Who bustle from you, in thruth i tell you, a safe schuetzt=schutzen= durch schwung oder stoss in schnelle kurze ie zucken) zuken no one can drive, if you have learned correctly, to the strike he may not come
    Glose
    Note: this is what is called the spechfenster: when he binds at your blade with a strike or a parry, so stay strong off straight arms with the long edge at his sword, with the point at him toward his face. And stand boldly and examine his arguments, what he would execute against you.
    Item: strikes he around from the sword with an oberhaw to the other side, so bind strongly against his strike with the long edge at top towards his head.
    Or if he strikes around with the swerch, so fall on him with the upper schnitt at the arm. Or if he twitch (ie zucken) his sword towards him and will try to thrust below. Then travel after (nachraisen) at the sword and set at him high.

    Item: or will he not peel off (abzeihen) nor strike around. So work you at his sword with the duplieren or such other pieces, accordingly as you fell the strength or the weakness of the sword.

    May be you read that a bit out of context?

    I think the idea behind this paragraph is that our opponent strike against our sword and not us, which is a way to create space/time, so we just bring the sword into place so he is more likely to do initiate something than us but if he does not we do something.
    Not really to take a long point and see what happens.

    Phil
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