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  1. tgace is online now
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    Posted On:
    10/13/2013 7:29pm


     Style: Arnis/Kenpo hybrid

    1
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Bruce Siddle

    I don't know if Bruce Siddle has been spoken of here before:

    In a nutshell. Bruce Siddle wrote a book called "Sharpening the Warriors Edge" a number of years back. The core of which focused on heart rate and the loss of motor function.



    This book and author were picked up by Ltc David Grossman who you all know and this heart rate chart was propogated throughout mil/le circles as proven science.

    Some folks didn't bite. Hock Hochheim posted the following.

    http://www.hockscqc.com/blogs/08-13/index.htm

    Go to the bottom...August 1st post.

    To summarize...the argument is that heart rate is simply a result...not a cause. A 160 BPM from sprinting will not result in the same physiological results as a 160 BPM from getting shot at. Its the fear/adrenalin/endocrine that causes tunnel vision, shaking hands, etc. AND an increased heart rate. Its not the HR that causes them.

    Of particular interest (for this forum) from Hocks post is:

    The professional look of the chart and its matter-of-fact presentation suggests some very serious, study work has been done. But by whom? The actual source is somewhat elusive these days. The source is usually just regurgitated as “Bruce Siddle's work on,” or the “work of Bruce Siddle,” over and over again, as through Siddle himself was a renown heart surgeon or maybe a Distinguished Fellow, doctor at Houston's Debakey Heart Center. Does anyone ask, just who this Siddle really is? Actually, Siddle has not graduated a college and has no psychology or medical degree or experience. He is essentially a self-proclaimed, martial arts grandmaster of his own style " Fist of Dharma," from a small, Illinois town. He had an idea at a very ripe time decades ago, to teach very non-violent, police courses. Many police administrations loved the programs because of the pressure-point approach. Many, many officers, including myself, did not like the program.
    Siddle is the guy behind the Pressure Point Control Tactics (PPCT) System that was so popular in LE circles for a while.

    Its interesting how a self-proclaimed grandmaster can found a widely LE accepted DT system, leverage a mistaken idea into noteriety, and even get ownership of a handgun manufacturing outfit (with Grossman once again).

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detonics

    Goes to show the power of "getting an in" with LE and MIL circles.

    ...does anyone know anything about the martial arts background of this guy?
    Last edited by tgace; 10/13/2013 7:33pm at .
  2. tgace is online now
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    Posted On:
    10/13/2013 8:03pm


     Style: Arnis/Kenpo hybrid

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
  3. slamdunc is online now
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    Posted On:
    10/13/2013 8:13pm

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     Style: TKD, CMA & American Kenpo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    He told me that he trained in Tae Kwon Do, Jeet Kune Do, Shorinryu, some Aikido, and I think Shotokan. And even though I went through the end-user basic and PPCT instructor training, I didn't drink the Kool-Aid LOL.

    When administrators figure out they will get sued for failure to train and failure to supervise leo's they have to give you something. On paper, PPCT looks good; in reality, it is a little better than nothing.

    If someone has enough money (or investors with money) to fund research, the backer can usually dictate the outcome of said research.

  4. tgace is online now
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    Posted On:
    10/13/2013 8:37pm


     Style: Arnis/Kenpo hybrid

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by tgace View Post
    Bruce Siddle was just out of high school when Eric and about twelve other kids began training under him. Mr. Siddle combined his boxing, Shorinryu, Tae Kwon Do, Jeet Kun Do, Aikido and Shotokan training into his own street fighting art naming it simply Chuan Fa (Way of the fist or Fist of Dharma). He named his school, "The Chuan Fa Academy of Martial Arts and Self Defense" and the school was located anywhere the group could work out, Bruce's home, my parent's garage, apartments etc.
    Am I reading that correctly? Siddle was fresh out of HS with multi-art "training"?
  5. slamdunc is online now
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    Posted On:
    10/13/2013 8:49pm

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     Style: TKD, CMA & American Kenpo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by tgace View Post
    Am I reading that correctly? Siddle was fresh out of HS with multi-art "training"?
    That's what it sounds like. I just clicked that link and discovered that Siddle also founded Chuan Fa--that is interesting; I just always thought it was a generic term for Chinese martial arts.

    Mr. Siddle has a way of convincing people that he knows what he is doing. Until they do a little research, it all seems to make sense. He was located in the metro-east area and as I understand it, is now in or around Nashville, TN.

  6. tgace is online now
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    Posted On:
    10/14/2013 9:15am


     Style: Arnis/Kenpo hybrid

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by tgace View Post
    I don't know if Bruce Siddle has been spoken of here before:

    In a nutshell. Bruce Siddle wrote a book called "Sharpening the Warriors Edge" a number of years back. The core of which focused on heart rate and the loss of motor function.



    This book and author were picked up by Ltc David Grossman who you all know and this heart rate chart was propogated throughout mil/le circles as proven science.

    Some folks didn't bite. Hock Hochheim posted the following.

    http://www.hockscqc.com/blogs/08-13/index.htm

    Go to the bottom...August 1st post.

    To summarize...the argument is that heart rate is simply a result...not a cause. A 160 BPM from sprinting will not result in the same physiological results as a 160 BPM from getting shot at. Its the fear/adrenalin/endocrine that causes tunnel vision, shaking hands, etc. AND an increased heart rate. Its not the HR that causes them.

    Of particular interest (for this forum) from Hocks post is:



    Siddle is the guy behind the Pressure Point Control Tactics (PPCT) System that was so popular in LE circles for a while.

    Its interesting how a self-proclaimed grandmaster can found a widely LE accepted DT system, leverage a mistaken idea into noteriety, and even get ownership of a handgun manufacturing outfit (with Grossman once again).

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detonics

    Goes to show the power of "getting an in" with LE and MIL circles.

    ...does anyone know anything about the martial arts background of this guy?

    I note that in the HR chart that at the bottom it stipulates "HORMONAL Induced Heart Rate". I don't know if Siddle has altered his approach or if that chart is from a source other than Siddle.

    All the same I don't know that HR should be used as a metric at all. I would think that people would have different symptoms at different heart rates under adrenaline/hormonal influences. Just because I may loose motor skills when scared at around 155 BPM doesn't mean you are going to lose them at the same rate.

    I wonder where these numbers came from...and so do others. That's the core of the criticism as I see it.
  7. OwlMatt is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/14/2013 9:49am


     Style: aikido

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    This guy claims a pretty extensive list of qualifications. Is it possible that all of this is true?

    http://www.hfrg.org/bruce-siddle/
  8. tgace is online now
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    Posted On:
    10/14/2013 10:30am


     Style: Arnis/Kenpo hybrid

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Heres an article written by Siddle:

    http://www.hfrg.org/storage/pdf/Appl...ointshting.pdf

    By using escalating heart rates as a medium to chart performance, scientists found that high or even moderate levels of stress interfere with fine muscular control and
    decision-making.

    In contrast, motor skills dominated by large muscle groups, that have minimal fine motor control and very little decision-making or cognitive complexity, are not effected by high levels of stress.

    Studies have also found that fine motor skills deteriorate at 115 BPM, complex motor skills deteriorate at 145 BPM, while gross motor skills were performed optimally at higher levels of stress. Weaver falls into the complex motor skill category and will generally degrade once the heart rate peaks to 145 beats per minute. This is important, since a deadly force threat will drive the heart rate well above 200 beats per minute.

    (This research is consistent with SNS vasoconstriction to the hands and fingers, which deteriorates the dexterity needed for precision shooting skills.)
    Siddle argues for Isosceles over Weaver based on his theory and states that front sight focus will be "impossible". The swallowing of Siddles theory could result in officers/mil personnel adopting training protocols that may or may not be advisable.

    Which is the cautionary tale I'm trying to get at here. There seems to be a "cult of personality" ("...well Siddle/Grossman say that....") within LE training vs any sort of verified research.
  9. The Cap is offline
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    ORNYTHORINQUE!... BOIT-SANS-SOIF!... BACHI-BOUZOUK!

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    Posted On:
    10/14/2013 7:45pm

    supporting member
     Style: Judo, BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Don't know about Siddle, but I've never been a fan of Grossman. Read "On Combat": lots of statements, very few references.
  10. Charles Brown is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/24/2013 2:42pm

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     Style: DT Instructor

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I went to a Grossman seminar for LEO. It was amazing.
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