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  1. ccwscott is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/26/2013 6:23pm


     Style: Judo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    BJJ for Judo

    While Judoka do a fair amount of groundwork, I've noticed that even someone with 6 months of experience in BJJ are doing things in groundwork that baffle even our best groundwork players. There are some newb guides on grappling posted here but those are mostly focused on being a good student and pedagogy, though the "roadmap for BJJ" and the tip to excessively practice sweeps helped a lot. I showed a few students two sweeps and I've been really pleased that they've been dominating on the ground now. I've picked up a few good things from youTube and blogs but especially with Judo starting to allow more time for groundwork, I'm wondering if anyone can point to some more BJJ basics resources like that, something that goes a little further than "listen to your instructor and roll a lot"

    There is a BJJ club locally but I can't afford to go there, unfortunately. There's a BJJ guy that I run into on rare occasions that can help me get some of the finer points, but it helps if I've gotten some of the broad strokes by then.
  2. BKR is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/26/2013 6:49pm

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     Style: Kodokan Judo

    3
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by ccwscott View Post
    While Judoka do a fair amount of groundwork, I've noticed that even someone with 6 months of experience in BJJ are doing things in groundwork that baffle even our best groundwork players. There are some newb guides on grappling posted here but those are mostly focused on being a good student and pedagogy, though the "roadmap for BJJ" and the tip to excessively practice sweeps helped a lot. I showed a few students two sweeps and I've been really pleased that they've been dominating on the ground now. I've picked up a few good things from youTube and blogs but especially with Judo starting to allow more time for groundwork, I'm wondering if anyone can point to some more BJJ basics resources like that, something that goes a little further than "listen to your instructor and roll a lot"

    There is a BJJ club locally but I can't afford to go there, unfortunately. There's a BJJ guy that I run into on rare occasions that can help me get some of the finer points, but it helps if I've gotten some of the broad strokes by then.
    I'm kinda confused...a 6 month BJJ player is confusing your "best" judoka on the ground? How experienced are these "best judoka on the ground"? I'm not saying it's impossible, just a bit odd. What specifically is baffling them?

    A primary reason for the gap between a BJJist and a judoka of similar experience is that the BJJ guy will be practicing groundwork including submissions all the time, whereas the judoka will have spent probably at most 50/50 between standing and groudnwork. This is really an issue in beginners, because typically the pedagogy of Judo is that subs are not taught for quite some time, and if they are not in great detail (as in BJJ).

    So, if the question is how to get better at groundwork for judoka, using BJJ as a resource, you have to train BJJ, which unless you are very time rich (and probably money too) is kinda hard to pull off...you also have to train BJJ with judo comp rules in mind, which means you can win by osaekomi as well as chokes and armbars.

    David Camarillo (Guerrilla BJJ) is someone who has grappled with your question, I think. Do some google-fu and check out his stuff.

    Personally, I've seen my students benefit from BJJ on the ground. A lot of it was on the ne waza end, meaning the movements and positioning rather than the specific katame waza.

    One of my students left town for a year or so and studied BJJ, earned a blue belt, and came home for a while. He was able to translate what he had learned to judo and guide the other students along, so they all got a lot better. But they were not slouches at groundwork in any case, not beginners at least.

    Part of the key to better using katame waza and ne waza in Judo is to work on transitions from standing to ground a LOT, and how to maintain control of yourself and uke on the way down and when impact happens. So you have to add that in...David Camarillo is big on that as well, as is Neil Adams. Best opportunities in Judo come off the transition rather than set piece maneuvers.
    Falling for Judo since 1980
  3. Judobum is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/06/2013 2:56am


     Style: Judo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    There are some really key differences in the approach to groundwork between judo and BJJ and that's likely the reason for the disparity you see. Keep in mind I am talking competition based trained here. Judo ne-waza is focussed on aggressive progressions, mostly from the top position. This is due to the limited time given in competitions. Without showing definite progression you will be stood up. You don't have the luxury of holding a dominant top position and waiting for your opponent to move to take advantage, you have to create your own progressions. On the flip side the risk/reward of sweeps and subs from the bottom position is such that unless you are very skilled in them you are likely better off stalling for the stand up from a weaker bottom position than trying to do a sweep and risking being pinned.

    This whole thing flies in the face of how most clubs practice ne-waza however. Most will simply do unlimited timed ne-waza randori which favors BJJ style ne-waza since you have plenty of time to do whatever you want. What I found most different working with BJJ guys is that they are constantly working on the ground to improve their position whereas I usually would try something and if it didn't work I'd move onto something completely different since you typically didn't have the time to gradually work in a transition or submission.

    I find ne-waza skills really vary across judo clubs. Typically clubs that focus on competition and crank out good fighters tend to be better (duh?) simply because they have better athletes. Occasionally you'll find ne-waza specialist clubs or fighters within clubs that are better. With the advancement of BJJ hopefully there will be a swing back to more ne-waza, especially if more time is given for groundwork.

    As BKR said effective use of nage-waza to transition into ne-waza is huge in judo. It is also almost universally overlooked and under-practiced due to the problem of limited mat space. You can't practice full on competition on a crowded judo mat because you can't have people fighting standup and rolling over people on the ground. So you end up picking it up on the fly while you do competitions or doing limited drills. Some clubs are better than others for this but I've encountered very few that practice this a lot.
  4. ccwscott is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/18/2013 1:36pm


     Style: Judo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Judobum View Post
    On the flip side the risk/reward of sweeps and subs from the bottom position is such that unless you are very skilled in them you are likely better off stalling for the stand up from a weaker bottom position than trying to do a sweep and risking being pinned.
    This is one of the questions I've been wondering about. Is it really that much more dangerous to attempt a sweep in Judo than in BJJ? Seems like the motivation to not get passed is about the same, and the benefits of completing a successful sweep are much better in Judo. You can actually get an osaekomi from a sweep in Judo, where in BJJ you're just moving from one position from which to attempt a sub into another, maybe picking up a point, and most Judoka seem unprepared to defend against a sweep. But I'm worried that you may be right and I'm not accounting for something. I've taught some of the students sweeps and seen some moderate success, but I don't know how well that'll work once they hit competition.

    This whole thing flies in the face of how most clubs practice ne-waza however. Most will simply do unlimited timed ne-waza randori which favors BJJ style ne-waza since you have plenty of time to do whatever you want.
    That drives me nuts. I like to give 30 seconds at most and focus mainly on transitions. The whole back to back thing is way over done it seems, and yeah I agree there's no point in doing long ground matches unless it's just screwing around for fun.

    I find ne-waza skills really vary across judo clubs. Typically clubs that focus on competition and crank out good fighters tend to be better (duh?) simply because they have better athletes. Occasionally you'll find ne-waza specialist clubs or fighters within clubs that are better. With the advancement of BJJ hopefully there will be a swing back to more ne-waza, especially if more time is given for groundwork.
    I'm hoping for the same. And that's one of the reasons I'm looking into some of this stuff. Last competition we went to, with the criteria for Ippon being raised and the time on the mat being increased, mat work was a huge part of who won and who lost. I'm hoping by the time tournament season rolls around again we'll have more polish on our ground work skills. Especially as we have a lot of new brown belts. Standing to ground transition is a huge part of that, but as you said space is a problem.
  5. AKRhino is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/18/2013 4:03pm


     Style: Brazillian Jiu Jitsu

    1
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    In my (admittedly limited) experience as a BJJ guy who's fairly new to Judo, I've found that, generally speaking, the better Judo guys aren't necessarily worse at ground work, but they are more specialized. There's likely a ton of reasons for that, and I think it makes sense, given the differences in the sports. I wouldn't advise a Judo guy spend much time working their spider guard, for example, as you're unlikely to have time to do much with it before you're stood up. So in that way, I think the regular jits guy has a much more diverse guard, in particular, then your average Judo guy.

    Another example of this is the turtle, both defensively, and offensively. Some of these Judo guys are extremely difficult to attack or turn over once turtled, and many are equally skilled at attacking me while I'm turtled. It makes sense, you turtle for 10-15 seconds and you get to stand back up and dump me on my head. Whereas in Jits, I can take my time, work hooks in, there's no need to turn you over at all, because I have unlimited time to work from there (or, in comp, I have til the round/match ends anyway). And alternatively, they have such a short time to turn you over, that they get pretty dang good at it. I sometimes think when I turtle on a Judo guy, and then roll to guard, that they're thinking "Why would anyone do that?" It's different strategies and mind sets for different rule sets.

    Another big one I notice is the pin game, which doesn't exist in jits. Kesa Gatame, for example. In jits, I'll go to the scarf hold with the far side underhook, without that, I'm too worried about getting my back taken. In Judo though, much greater attention is put on holding people in Kesa for 25 seconds, and then you win, so they often will have very heavy, very solid hold down. Sure, I'm often able to squirm out and take the back from there, but within 25 seconds? Maybe not...

    So, I guess what I'm saying is, I think it's a misconception that Judo guys aren't as good on the ground as jits guys. They are often VERY good, at the things they do. It's just that the things they do are different, because they use a very different rule set than I'm used to.

    Also, obviously this will vary by the club, as some spend more time than others on ground work.
  6. Judobum is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/20/2013 12:29am


     Style: Judo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    AKRhino did an excellent job of going over the differences. Judo ne-waza is definately more specialized and limited in scope in terms of competition application. You learn mostly a top game because that's mostly what works. The bottom game is too time-intensive and too long to develop, you'll likely get stood up before you can get your sweep done.

    The reason why you don't see a lot of sweeps in Judo IMHO is that the focus is on the top game since it's easiest and the most widely taught. The reason for that is because of the limited time on the ground so it's not as effective and thus not taught as much and so people are more comfortable stalling for a stand up. Sweeps also don't tend to end up in a clean pin either, your opponent will often be able to catch one of your legs with theirs to negate the pin during the sweep. Plus you open yourself up to getting caught in a pin when you do the sweep. That's why you don't see a lot of it done at the higher levels, it's too dangerous and you're not likely to have the time to pull it off anyways.

    The turtle is indeed a widely practiced position both offensively and defensively in judo. You end up there a lot and guys don't pull guard because again you're opening yourself up to getting pinned because you're exposing your back. Judo guys are very trained to not end up on their backs since if you're there in judo, you're losing most of the time. The turtle is preferable because your opponent will only get 10-15 seconds to make something happen and if your defense is strong you can typically hold out that long and get the stand up. Conversely judo turtle breaking techniques are much more aggressive than BJJ where you have the luxury of time.

    As AKRhino said, the pin game isn't a focus in BJJ while in judo it's the primary focus for ne-waza. Subs tend to be opportunistic in nature, if you land in a spot where you can get one you take it but otherwise they often take way too long to develop. Pins can be obtained much quicker and once you have the pin called you can secure it without the danger of being stood up. Kesa is one of the major ones and like AKRhino said once a good ground guy gets in locked on you're not getting out. That's one of the huge differences between judo and BJJ, in judo the pin is the end game whereas in BJJ it's just a step to get to your end game.

    I find the judo ground game to be very much more opportunistic than BJJ. If something is there, you take it, if it's not you stand back up and start again. At higher levels the skill differences are so small and the rules are such that you can't really make anything happen in the limited time you have to work. That's what's created the specialization in the top game in judo and the focus on defending from the turtle which would be inadvisable in BJJ. It's a different game and different focus which is what it is. I love ne-waza and will be happy to see it become more of a focus in competition but we'll have to see what happens.
  7. IMightBeWrong is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/20/2013 1:13am


     Style: 9mm/Judo/BJJ/MT

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    A couple of years ago I spent time doing Judo and then I stopped and switched gears to Muay Thai. I'll be restarting Judo at the start of August and training in both Judo and BJJ at the same time, plus I still have Muay Thai training at my MMA gym. This will be my first time going back and forth between multiple gyms. I'm stoked! Ever since I stopped doing Judo, I've been telling myself "I should really do some more Judo." Better late than never.

    My limited past experience with Judo in 2 different clubs was that Judo spent maybe 1/10th or less of their time on Ne Waza. In my BJJ class we spend maybe 1/10th of our time on takedowns and wrestling and the rest doing just groundwork. This is exactly why I'm stoked to start cross training.
    "Intelligence is nothing more than discussing things with others. Limitless wisdom comes of this." - 山本 常朝

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