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  1. Drunken Soim is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/07/2013 1:29pm


     Style: Chinese MA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Critique my rules

    Hello, guys. I read through the entire thread but couldn't watch all the videos yet. I train Taiji (not much of tuishou practice, unfortunately) and started training Shuai Jiao last year, so I hope I can bring something nice to this thread.

    In my country's national Wushu/kungfu championships there are already Shai Jiao and fixed-step tuishou matches. Shuai Jiao matches are fine and get better every year. Tuishou, on the other hand has less competitors each year, and the gap between their technical levels only increases. I believe it might have something to do with the rules. Maybe they're not so interesting for taiji practicioners.

    Rules are more or less like this: competitors must unbalance the adversary with taiji techniques (peng, lu etc). They can only move the back leg once during the struggle - it's like an ajustment step.. It goes back to the initial position when one of the competitors falls, moves the front leg out of the start position or the back leg twice.

    I look forward to your opinion on these rules and if you think they have something with the decreasing popularity of this type of competition.
  2. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/07/2013 1:43pm

    staff
     Style: xingyi

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
  3. Drunken Soim is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/07/2013 7:57pm


     Style: Chinese MA

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Thanks for the correction, man.

    My intention was to discuss about grappling competition in chinese martial arts with the folks at the "Where is all the full contact kung fu....grappling?" thread. Rivington posted his insights on taiji and tuishou training (posted it back in 2009), so I hoped we could discuss that a bit more today.
    Last edited by Drunken Soim; 5/07/2013 8:27pm at . Reason: further info
  4. killface is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/09/2013 5:37pm


     Style: BJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Well if I could choose between push hands and Shuai Jiao, I would do Shuai Jiao anyway.
    You are really lucky to be able to!
    So maybe there is no problem with the rules but just that people prefer it.

    Maybe the rules for push hands could be made easier, like instead of "use taji techniques" something like "use whatever you want to unbalance them as long as you don’t seriously hurt them".
  5. Permalost is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/09/2013 6:04pm

    supporting member
     Style: FMA, dumbek, Indian clubs

    1
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I feel that fixed step push hands is an elementary building block of moving step push hands. Same principles, wider application. I'd like to see more moving step from tai chi competitors, but moving step is like more restricted shuai jiao so if that's already available you could just do that.
  6. Drunken Soim is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/09/2013 10:49pm


     Style: Chinese MA

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by killface View Post
    So maybe there is no problem with the rules but just that people prefer it.
    I'm beginning to feel that really is the case. Maybe people are prefering to compete in Shuai Jiao rather than Tuishou.

    Quote Originally Posted by Permalost View Post
    I feel that fixed step push hands is an elementary building block of moving step push hands. Same principles, wider application.
    I haven't thought about it that way. Maybe you're right. Maybe the organization introduced fixed-step tuishou in order to prepare competitors for moving-step tuishou. It's a pity tuishou is falling out of favor anyway.

    There's something more about the competitions here that I believe isn't the same in other countries. Until now, only competitors who train Baoding Shuai Jiao (the only "pure" Shuai Jiao style practiced in the country) can take part in the Shuai Jiao championships. Since other chinese MA have Shuai Jiao elements, maybe this form competition isn't limited to Baoding Shuai Jiao, Shanxi Shuai Jiao etc in other countries. It's similar with Tuishou here - you have to practice a Taijiquan style (and demonstrate "peng", "lu", "ji' and "an" to the referees before the match).

    You guys have Shuai Jiao and/or Tuishou championships in your country (countries)?
  7. Rivington is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/10/2013 12:58am

    supporting member
     Style: Taijiquan/Shuai-Chiao/BJJ

    3
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Why play tuishou when you can play shuai jiao? Seems to me that the issue is one of scoring, not of mobility. Elevate the platform for moving step, jacketless tuishou and score points for good palm strikes, shoulder checks, and elbows that unbalance or upset the opponent off the platform.

    That is, score SJ for "down"—throws that leave the opponent on the ground—and score TS for "down or out." SJ will then tend to concentrate on grips and sweeps, and TS for getting in and striking the center.

    Which is what the arts behind the sports are supposed to train you to do anyway.
  8. Drunken Soim is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/12/2013 12:59pm


     Style: Chinese MA

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Reading my previous posts I realize I sound like someone frustrated with fixed-step tuishou.

    I didn't understand very well what you said about the scoring issue, Rivington. But I liked what you said at the end of your post about the focus of Tuishou (attacking the center) and Shuai Jiao (grips and sweeps). I never thought about it that way. Nice insight.
  9. Rivington is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/12/2013 1:04pm

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     Style: Taijiquan/Shuai-Chiao/BJJ

    1
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Basically, when I play SJ and push someone out of the ring, I don't get any points.

    When I play TS, I do.
  10. MaartenSFS is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/12/2013 9:35pm


     Style: Sanda, Taijiquan ( Chen)

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I honestly don't like the idea of competitive Tuishou. It defeats the purpose, which is to train sensitivity and applications against a resisting [albeit very limited] partner and develop one's shenfa (way of moving the body). It's a training tool and the next step up is in Shuaijiao and other competitions, provided they don't limit Taiji competitors too much. In China a lot of Taiji practitioners seem to be at peace with Shuaijiao rules and actively compete. A lot of people never get past Tuishou, which is a shame.

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