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  1. Jimmy Needer is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/02/2013 5:38am


     Style: Karate, Muay Thai

    -11
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Back off MMA

    I am growing tired of the digital bashing some MMA enthusiasts dish out to traditional karate. From what I have read by far the largest defamation is that traditional karate is ineffective. I take objection to this point of view. There is no doubt that MMA is effective, I do not dispute evolution - however the evolution of this sport occurs within the confines of a cage, literally. In its mainstream competitive form, MMA is a watered down yet no BS blend of what can be learned quickly and delivered effectively by athletes combating under rules in a cage ... no dispute that it is effective within this context. If you put a karateka in a cage with an MMA fighter then the outcome is evident - the MMA will tackle the karateka to the ground, sit on him and pound his coconut like a gorilla on heat. However karate is a martial art path which means so much more than cages, tough guys and egos. Having trained in Kickboxing and freestyle borderline MMA in the past and then trading this path for traditional karate, I have come to see profound differences in the two. On the matter of traditional karate being ineffective, no one would dispute that most real fights start and end with the right hand ... everything else is dropped like a colon in Bali when its really on like Donkey Kong. In my first year of learning Shito Ryu Shukokai, almost every class of the five classes a week were spent learning how to throw a strong right punch. Even after years of training in modern MMA or 'freestyles' ... it wasn't until I started training in traditional karate that I discovered that I couldn't punch at all. Best example ... try smashing a rock hard kick shield and stopping it dead with a hard right punch when the shield is being held by a 110 kilogram karateka charging towards you. All the Kickboxing and freestyle MMA methods of delivering a strong right punch mean nothing as your entire wrist and arm collapses. Traditional karate is effective ... just not when rules and rounds are involved. No real fight rarely runs beyond a few seconds ... before the MMA fighter can shape up to shoot the karateka to the ground the karateka delivers a fast hard straight punch to his chin shattering his jaw like a glass ashtray. However this situation should never occur for a real karateka ... a real karateka would do their best not to put themselves in harms way in the first place. What kind of person would enjoy doing such to another human being?
  2. CrackFox is online now
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    Posted On:
    1/02/2013 5:49am

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     Style: Judo

    4
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Jimmy Needer View Post
    try smashing a rock hard kick shield and stopping it dead with a hard right punch when the shield is being held by a 110 kilogram karateka charging towards you.
    Why on earth would anyone want to do that. Someone's charging, you step off the line and counter hit. Force on force is way too risky in a situation like that.

    Traditional karate is effective ... just not when rules and rounds are involved. No real fight rarely runs beyond a few seconds ... before the MMA fighter can shape up to shoot the karateka to the ground the karateka delivers a fast hard straight punch to his chin shattering his jaw like a glass ashtray.
    Sure buddy, sure. If it wasn't for those rules banning straight punches, karate would be king of the ring.
  3. Jimmy Needer is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/02/2013 6:14am


     Style: Karate, Muay Thai

    -4
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Actually Shukokai is big on eight directional footwork, sidestepping and landing a punch to the jaw joint is just one example. Standing your ground against a heavy target is more for developing strong technique ... conditioning and impact training.
  4. Budo_Brown is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/02/2013 6:24am


     Style: Kyokushin Karate

    -6
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Kudos for trying to win one for the good guys, but prepare for a full scale karate bashing coming your way. This is a predominately MMA forum. In my experience, the karate bashing is usually directed at karate that doesn't train alive or spar. There are those guys out there that say "karate sucks and it's ineffective". Those guys however are talking directly out of their ass and shouldn't be paid attention too. Karate can be and is effective. Train hard and train alive. Is karate going to teach how to grapple like a Gracie? No. It will teach some very effective striking when trained realistically with a full resisting opponent though. Would a black belt in Kyokushin beat an amateur to pro MMA fighter under an MMA rule set. No. Put the same two fighters under Knockdown karate rules fighting bare knuckle and the MMA fighters odds go way down. Different arts are effective or less effective with different rule sets. Bottom line is karate is effective and if you train alive then you know that. You talk about being a karateka, so act like one and don't let the digital karate bashing get to you. Osu!
  5. CrackFox is online now
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    Posted On:
    1/02/2013 6:46am

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     Style: Judo

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    Quote Originally Posted by Budo_Brown View Post
    Kudos for trying to win one for the good guys, but prepare for a full scale karate bashing coming your way. This is a predominately MMA forum.
    Karate isn't the main reason he'll take a bashing. The main reasons are the cliches he spouts, combined with a wall of text, and bravado about smashing jaws like glass.

    In my experience, the karate bashing is usually directed at karate that doesn't train alive or spar.
    Sounds like the shukokai class that used to use the same sports hall I trained judo in.
  6. Vorpal is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/02/2013 6:52am

    Join us... or die
     Style: BJJ

    4
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Jimmy Needer View Post
    I am growing tired of the digital bashing some MMA enthusiasts dish out to traditional karate. From what I have read by far the largest defamation is that traditional karate is ineffective. I take objection to this point of view. There is no doubt that MMA is effective, I do not dispute evolution - however the evolution of this sport occurs within the confines of a cage, literally. In its mainstream competitive form, MMA is a watered down yet no BS blend of what can be learned quickly and delivered effectively by athletes combating under rules in a cage ... no dispute that it is effective within this context. If you put a karateka in a cage with an MMA fighter then the outcome is evident - the MMA will tackle the karateka to the ground, sit on him and pound his coconut like a gorilla on heat. However karate is a martial art path which means so much more than cages, tough guys and egos. Having trained in Kickboxing and freestyle borderline MMA in the past and then trading this path for traditional karate, I have come to see profound differences in the two. On the matter of traditional karate being ineffective, no one would dispute that most real fights start and end with the right hand ... everything else is dropped like a colon in Bali when its really on like Donkey Kong. In my first year of learning Shito Ryu Shukokai, almost every class of the five classes a week were spent learning how to throw a strong right punch. Even after years of training in modern MMA or 'freestyles' ... it wasn't until I started training in traditional karate that I discovered that I couldn't punch at all. Best example ... try smashing a rock hard kick shield and stopping it dead with a hard right punch when the shield is being held by a 110 kilogram karateka charging towards you. All the Kickboxing and freestyle MMA methods of delivering a strong right punch mean nothing as your entire wrist and arm collapses. Traditional karate is effective ... just not when rules and rounds are involved. No real fight rarely runs beyond a few seconds ... before the MMA fighter can shape up to shoot the karateka to the ground the karateka delivers a fast hard straight punch to his chin shattering his jaw like a glass ashtray. However this situation should never occur for a real karateka ... a real karateka would do their best not to put themselves in harms way in the first place. What kind of person would enjoy doing such to another human being?
    Street vs ring? Again? really? Karate in and of itself isn't a problem. The TKD and TSD schools I attended in the 80s sparred hard. You can't find that anymore. Train hard in a hard sparring Kyokushin dojo and you are way ahead of the guy on the street (unless that guy wrestled in high school). The problem with karate in general is that it has been watered down, is train in ineffective ways and is not pressure tested the way that most combat sports are. It amazes me that people are still, this far after UFC 1, convinced that although they cannot prevail against someone on the mats under any given ruleset they will still be able to prevail on the streets without one. It's mindboggling.

    I feel that a subsequent post about how you train to fight multiple opponents is not far off.
  7. Rock Ape is online now
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    Posted On:
    1/02/2013 7:33am

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    9
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Try hitting the return key once in a while to create the odd paragraph, makes reading so much easier and less likely that people will dismiss your post because it's hard on the eyes.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jimmy Needer View Post
    I am growing tired of the digital bashing some MMA enthusiasts dish out to traditional karate.
    Why should that really matter to you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jimmy Needer View Post
    From what I have read by far the largest defamation is that traditional karate is ineffective.
    That's subjective on many levels.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jimmy Needer View Post
    ..//.. There is no doubt that MMA is effective, I do not dispute evolution - however the evolution of this sport occurs within the confines of a cage, literally. In its mainstream competitive form, MMA is a watered down yet no BS blend of what can be learned quickly and delivered effectively by athletes combating under rules in a cage ... no dispute that it is effective within this context. If you put a karateka in a cage with an MMA fighter then the outcome is evident - the MMA will tackle the karateka to the ground, sit on him and pound his coconut like a gorilla on heat.
    OK so, you've ironed out one of the reasons on the subjectivity issue. - Karate isn't effective against an equally trained/skilled MMA fighter. We all know that, we've known that for, like ever, so why does it grind your gears so much ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jimmy Needer View Post
    However karate is a martial art path which means so much more than cages, tough guys and egos.
    Again, subjective. Martial arts mean different things to different people. If you're suggesting that the ethos of training in a discipline such as Karate is "self development" (yada, yada, yada) then I wouldn't disagree however, you cannot enforce that ethos or ideological thinking on everyone, and that's why it's subjective.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jimmy Needer View Post
    Having trained in Kickboxing and freestyle borderline MMA in the past and then trading this path for traditional karate, I have come to see profound differences in the two.
    That's three actually, but I understand where you're going.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jimmy Needer View Post
    On the matter of traditional karate being ineffective, no one would dispute that most real fights start and end with the right hand ...
    Unless there's a knife or some other force multiplier involved ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jimmy Needer View Post
    ..//..everything else is dropped like a colon in Bali when its really on like Donkey Kong. In my first year of learning Shito Ryu Shukokai, almost every class of the five classes a week were spent learning how to throw a strong right punch. Even after years of training in modern MMA or 'freestyles' ... it wasn't until I started training in traditional karate that I discovered that I couldn't punch at all.
    Really ?? How many people had you actually hit in the face during those years ? Also bear in mind that there's a very big factor you haven't mentioned yet, that's people's ABILITY. It's not always the art or system at fault. People are the complex equation - not the physical requirements of the system being studied because, some people, no matter how often they train, how hard they try, will never be particularly good at it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jimmy Needer View Post
    Best example ... try smashing a rock hard kick shield and stopping it dead with a hard right punch when the shield is being held by a 110 kilogram karateka charging towards you.
    Thats the worst "Best example" I've ever read on this site. Seriously.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jimmy Needer View Post
    ..//.. All the Kickboxing and freestyle MMA methods of delivering a strong right punch mean nothing as your entire wrist and arm collapses. Traditional karate is effective ... just not when rules and rounds are involved. No real fight rarely runs beyond a few seconds ... before the MMA fighter can shape up to shoot the karateka to the ground the karateka delivers a fast hard straight punch to his chin shattering his jaw like a glass ashtray.
    Again highly subjective and you have ABSOLUTELY zero evidence to support your theory.

    If you want to step up and film yourself doing that very thing then I'd be willing to bet you'd fail. Please prove me wrong however.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jimmy Needer View Post
    However this situation should never occur for a real karateka ... a real karateka would do their best not to put themselves in harms way in the first place.
    Ideologically thinking yes, but we don't live in an ideal world, do we.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jimmy Needer View Post
    What kind of person would enjoy doing such to another human being?
    MMA fighters.
    "To sin by silence when one should protest makes cowards out of men".

    ~Ella Wheeler
  8. DerAuslander is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/02/2013 8:06am

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     Style: BJJ/C-JKD/KAAALIII!!!!!!!

    4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimmy Needer View Post
    I am growing tired of the digital bashing some MMA enthusiasts dish out to traditional karate. From what I have read by far the largest defamation is that traditional karate is ineffective. I take objection to this point of view. There is no doubt that MMA is effective, I do not dispute evolution - however the evolution of this sport occurs within the confines of a cage, literally. In its mainstream competitive form, MMA is a watered down yet no BS blend of what can be learned quickly and delivered effectively by athletes combating under rules in a cage ... no dispute that it is effective within this context. If you put a karateka in a cage with an MMA fighter then the outcome is evident - the MMA will tackle the karateka to the ground, sit on him and pound his coconut like a gorilla on heat. However karate is a martial art path which means so much more than cages, tough guys and egos. Having trained in Kickboxing and freestyle borderline MMA in the past and then trading this path for traditional karate, I have come to see profound differences in the two. On the matter of traditional karate being ineffective, no one would dispute that most real fights start and end with the right hand ... everything else is dropped like a colon in Bali when its really on like Donkey Kong. In my first year of learning Shito Ryu Shukokai, almost every class of the five classes a week were spent learning how to throw a strong right punch. Even after years of training in modern MMA or 'freestyles' ... it wasn't until I started training in traditional karate that I discovered that I couldn't punch at all. Best example ... try smashing a rock hard kick shield and stopping it dead with a hard right punch when the shield is being held by a 110 kilogram karateka charging towards you. All the Kickboxing and freestyle MMA methods of delivering a strong right punch mean nothing as your entire wrist and arm collapses. Traditional karate is effective ... just not when rules and rounds are involved. No real fight rarely runs beyond a few seconds ... before the MMA fighter can shape up to shoot the karateka to the ground the karateka delivers a fast hard straight punch to his chin shattering his jaw like a glass ashtray. However this situation should never occur for a real karateka ... a real karateka would do their best not to put themselves in harms way in the first place. What kind of person would enjoy doing such to another human being?
    Please do not waste the valuable time and resources of the Bullshido Traditional Martial Arts forum by posting utter crap like this.
  9. Jimmy Needer is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/02/2013 8:56am


     Style: Karate, Muay Thai

    -7
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Wow, such hostility after a block of text punched out from my phone. All I can say is thanks for the wise words Budo Brown. I am new as of a few hours ago to forum posting in general and also to this site and I won't be back. I meant everything I stated ... in all its subjectivity as it is after all, just my opinion. Despite the innuendo I used for a bit of fun, I was simply venting frustrations from the negative comments I've read online. I've got better things to do than tear down people I don't know, tends to lack compassion for the other guy. I won't be back, not my scene - prefer constructive criticism to aggressive criticism, which is weak considering the post I wrote. However this was directed to an issue and not to anyone personally. I lowered myself by posting my thoughts on this site, at my age I should have known better. A real karateka would never have hanged themselves out for humiliation like that. Whoops, you live and you learn.
  10. Vorpal is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/02/2013 9:25am

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     Style: BJJ

    5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimmy Needer View Post
    Wow, such hostility after a block of text punched out from my phone. All I can say is thanks for the wise words Budo Brown. I am new as of a few hours ago to forum posting in general and also to this site and I won't be back. I meant everything I stated ... in all its subjectivity as it is after all, just my opinion. Despite the innuendo I used for a bit of fun, I was simply venting frustrations from the negative comments I've read online. I've got better things to do than tear down people I don't know, tends to lack compassion for the other guy. I won't be back, not my scene - prefer constructive criticism to aggressive criticism, which is weak considering the post I wrote. However this was directed to an issue and not to anyone personally. I lowered myself by posting my thoughts on this site, at my age I should have known better. A real karateka would never have hanged themselves out for humiliation like that. Whoops, you live and you learn.
    You take it the wrong way. I came to this site while I was studying Aiki Jujutsu. I read everything with an open mind, went to some throwdowns. I ended up switching over to BJJ and am having a great time learning something very effective. Don't tuck and run.. Hang out, read, see what other people have to say.
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