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  1. shifu is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/13/2012 1:36am


     Style: White Crane

    -4
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Ron Goninan uses Victims of Mass Shootings as a Defense

    Hi guys,

    Clarify my relation to Kerim Schaber? Sure!

    I operate my own school of Chinese Gongfu here in my home town. I had contacted Kerim among other people as I host a yearly Martial Arts, Health & Fitness Festival (all completely free) every year in March. So my initial contact came in that way.

    We had communicated via email back and forth and I invited Kerim to a course my school was running on "The Way Within" dealing with some of my associaties giving lectures and training in TaiJi, Qigong, White Crane Gongfu, Shiatsu etc. Kerim and one of his teachers made the 4 to 5 hour trip to attend and participate in this workshop. He was very respectful, well skilled and versed in understanding of the Martial Arts and talked openly about his history within the Martial Arts and hid nothing. He also talked about trying to walk his own path unencumbered by the past.


    1/. What belt(s) or other certifications does Mr. Kerim Schaber hold in Kung Fu or in any other Martial Art?

    * You should contact him about that!

    2) When and from whom were each of these received?

    * See Above.

    3) What method of qualifying led to the award of each of these?

    * See Above.

    4) On what basis is Mr. Schaber entitled to train, test, and award ranks to, students in Kung Fu?

    * See Above (although he, as the founder and originator of that which he teaches would mean that he is his own judge on this matter?)


    My questions:

    A/. What in the Blue Hell does his ranks have to do with anything? Any rank helfd by any individual is only truly relevant to themselves and the instructor who awarded same.

    B/. What does it matter who his teacher was? Would it not be more pertinent as to what he teaches and how he teaches it now?

    In questioning his "rank" and right to teach, can each of you please supply info about your own rank thus demonstrating your ability to stand in judgement of another?

    Why beat it up here? Why not write to Kerim

    kerim@taogungfu.com

    And ask him directly. Then you can report back to this thread with some form of actual information .... just an idea.
  2. battlefields is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/13/2012 3:14am

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     Style: BJJ/ MMA/ MT

    1
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    You're being confrontational while we are asking mere questions. As an instructor yourself, I fail to see how you wouldn't value students requesting to know who was your teacher. It goes a long way to establish credibility. Considering this person would be a competitor in your market, I also fail to see why you are so vehemently defending his lack of verifiable accreditation.

    We do not rely on people's word, unfortunately there are people who lie. It is one of the reasons this site exists.

    I ask again, as you somehow failed to answer my simple question: what art does Kerim teach/ study?
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Machette View Post
    Ups to Battlefields for dropping the sage wisdom.

    You are like a Pimp Yoda.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tranquil Suit View Post
    Battlefields... You're more of a man than I am.
    GET A RED BELT OR DIE TRYIN'.
  3. ChuckWepner is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/13/2012 3:15am


     

    4
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Thanks for replying, shifu. Note that I didn't ask *you* to answer the questions. It would be much better for *him* to answer them in the thread to clear things up. I don't want to risk any possible question of miscommunication in private correspondence. If you don't want to contact your friend Kerim and invite him to this thread, that's fine, but don't pretend that I asked you to answer for him.

    he, as the founder and originator of that which he teaches would mean that he is his own judge on this matter
    Ahh, here we go. So, the Kung Fu that he teaches is an art of which he is "the founder and originator." Then, surely you can see that it is especially important that he have a clear account of what certified expertise he was relying on in order to be able to create his own martial art.

    This is particularly true since, as you said earlier,

    I've met and trained with Kerim Schaber of Tao Gung Fu when he visited my school a few months ago now. His main lineage or art is found within the Tibetan Martial Arts.
    But of course, his "Tibetan" lineage for "Tao Gung Fu" is: Unnamed Tibetan Taoist Monks -> Miles Austin -> Kerim Schaber. But since the first part of this alleged lineage is very unlikely, what "Tibetan" lineage are you talking about for Tao Gung Fu? And you also insist that Mr. Schaber has long since strongly disassociated himself from Miles Austin, so what is the other source from which he gained all of this actual knowledge of Tibetan Kung Fu to mold into his own system?

    Quote Originally Posted by shifu View Post
    My questions:

    A/. What in the Blue Hell does his ranks have to do with anything? Any rank helfd by any individual is only truly relevant to themselves and the instructor who awarded same.
    That is a very silly (indeed ludicrous) statement. Do you also think that teachers in other fields do not need qualifications in their area of expertise? Or do you just have so little respect for the martial arts that you think martial arts teachers needn't have relevant qualifications? Either way, I can only hope that this was a momentary lapse due to defensiveness rather than a serious claim. Your standard would mean no public scrutiny whatever of illegitimate certs in the martial arts. That attitude would be a cancer on any area of endeavor.

    B/. What does it matter who his teacher was? Would it not be more pertinent as to what he teaches and how he teaches it now?
    Both are pertinent. A lawyer's prospective clients are entitled to know that she has a license and a degree and which law school the degree is from; telling people to just watch her in court and read her briefs instead is foolish. It is another piece of typical hand-waving from someone defending bullshido. Both a teacher's classroom performance and his training and qualifications are relevant. Pretending otherwise isn't going to fool anyone.

    [QUOTE] In questioning his "rank" and right to teach, can each of you please supply info about your own rank thus demonstrating your ability to stand in judgement of another?[\QUOTE]

    This is another red herring. As soon as I set myself up as a teacher of one or more martial arts and / or begin issuing belts in one, I will be more than happy to make public my qualifications for doing so. Like any honest professional, I make my qualifications and training readily and openly available to all who are considering using my services, as well as to all of my colleagues.

    Here, however, the question isn't one of making some judgment about the quality of Mr. Schaber's Kung Fu (though there are a number of people on the forum qualified to do so). Rather, the question is about what professional qualifications, if any, Mr. Schaber has for what he is doing.

    Why beat it up here? Why not write to Kerim

    kerim@taogungfu.com

    And ask him directly. Then you can report back to this thread with some form of actual information .... just an idea.
    Since you don't want to invite your friend to the thread to respond, others here will see to his being notified and invited.
    Last edited by ChuckWepner; 12/13/2012 3:20am at .
  4. shifu is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/13/2012 4:37am


     Style: White Crane

    -2
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Guys,guys, guys,

    Confrontational??? What do I have to be confrontational about?

    Credibility? Accreditation?

    I can only guess what it must be like for you guys as I don't know. Here in Oz, the emphasis is not on who taught you or who signed a piece of paper but on what you teach and how you teach it.

    I've been involved in the Martial Arts for over 41 years now and I cannot think of one occasion that anyone who has came to my school to learn has ever asked me "Who" taught me and what "Rank" I have! Never! They have far more interest in does what I teach have merit? Does it work? Does it make sense? Will it benefit them?

    That doesn't mean I don't have a lineage or rank ... I do (from China, Taiwan & Singapore proper) ... it's just never been an issue.

    Look if that's what floats your boat great! Then by all means question away ... all I am trying to say ina non-confrontational way is it's not the "be all and end all". There are other more pressing issues which should be examined here other then who and what rank one may have or have not.

    I ask again, as you somehow failed to answer my simple question: what art does Kerim teach/ study?
    As I could see it and from his own description it seems closely related to Tibetan Pak Hok with some very interesting Chinese Internal dynamics ... what is the major problem with that?

    Your best bet would be to write to Kerim ( kerim@taogungfu.com ) and simply ask him.

    Regarding Kerim, why would it be so hard or prone to "mis-communication" if you were to write to him and get his answers directly??? What mis-communication" could occur? You'd be getting it straight from the person himself!

    Regarding your charge and assertion that I haven't contacted Kerim in relation to this thread ..... well you know the old saying "you should never 'assume' anything as that only makes an 'ass' out of 'u' and 'me'" ... I not only have contacted him and given him a link to this thread but he has replied to that very same communication. So sorry mate but you have got it wrong on that one ... I won't hold my breath waiting on an apology!!!

    As to if Kerim wants to reply to your posts or questions then I cannot say as that is his decision to make. All he said to me was:

    It would be better if people would have a go and judge on the actual classes?!
    Again, his email is: kerim@taogungfu.com


    As for me, well having seen all types in the past 41 years including some very well known and highly ranked people of good lineages who couldn't teach their way out of a wet paper bag, who lacked real experiences and ability despite who taught them and the high ranks they hold .... well that's why such things don't impress me as I have seen the guys who night after night have sweated their way through the arts some with some "Named" people and a great many without, to only have a relatively low rank but a bloody high level of skill, knowledge and understanding and who are more than good at relating that to others.
  5. battlefields is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/13/2012 5:16am

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     Style: BJJ/ MMA/ MT

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Check my location, shifu, I am in Australia, in fact, I know the north side of the Harbour intimately. And just because no one has asked you for your lineage (which it appears you are either able to readily supply if you haven't already been forthcoming on your website or some such) doesn't mean it is a non issue. The majority of people would know **** all about martial arts to the point that you could wave a few Asian-y terms in front of them, call yourself Sifu Twin Ki Dik because "it was what the Shaolin masters called you in the hills of the Wu Dan called you" and you've got yourself a customer. THAT is the reason bullshido.net asks about lineage, because people with no credentials are taking money from LEGITIMATE martial artists.

    We have heard a thousand times people tell us, "just come down and train, then you'll see" in answer to simple direct questions such as "who is your teacher?" Too often I witness the ignorance of people toward martial arts and those are the people that would not know to ask simple direct questions that a legitimate martial artist should be able to answer without hesitation.

    I have asked Kerim to come to this thread. It is telling that he answers with a bullshido trope, that being "come and train to find out" through you.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Machette View Post
    Ups to Battlefields for dropping the sage wisdom.

    You are like a Pimp Yoda.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tranquil Suit View Post
    Battlefields... You're more of a man than I am.
    GET A RED BELT OR DIE TRYIN'.
  6. shifu is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/13/2012 5:50am


     Style: White Crane

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Okay so your in Oz ...Good for you so what is your stake in all this, Does Kerim present some form of competition for you, your teach and style? Are you located in his area and therefore in some form of competition with him?

    Now here's a real telling remark:

    [QUOTETHAT is the reason bullshido.net asks about lineage, because people with no credentials are taking money from LEGITIMATE martial artists. ][/QUOTE]

    See this is the difference between you and me, I don't give a proverbial rats arse about "money" ... if money is all that matters in the martial arts then for fucks sake man, let me off the planet as I care deeply, passionately about the heart, essence and spirit of the arts not how much "money" I can make of "customers"

    Also please enlighten me as to what exactly is a:

    legitimate martial artist
    ?

    No seriously! I'd love to know what you consider makes a martial artist (I'm not one by the way as I am a person first & I've seen thousands of "Martial Artists" in my time who have no inkling of either term ... some very big names in the "business"). Please let me know your thoughts on this.

    Historically and culturally can you also show me factual accounts of within the origins of the Martial Arts in particular the Chinese form when rank over functionality was ever the question? The real old guys did not give two hoots for ranks, who you trained with, business and customers!!! Their are a great many in China, Taiwan and other areas who still hold true to this way of teaching and the martial arts that is if you know where to look and what to look for, most don't!

    I've seen many on the cover of Blitz etc who have big ranks, studied from Master so-and-so, who are well known, schools charging heaps of money but who are real arse-holes to their students, friends an even their familes ... if that's a "legitimate Martial Artist" then count me our brother!

    Anyhow I've taken up too much of my important time on this already. I judge people on what they do, not on their rank, their lineage and or who much damn money they can make from their "customers"

    Anyhow I've contacted Kerim as stated above (even though you said I wouldn't ..... wrong!) ... If he decides to come on this board and answer you then great. If not, it changes nothing, proves nothing so why get yourself all bent out of shape over it unless you have a personal stake or agenda in all of this???
  7. battlefields is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/13/2012 6:27am

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     Style: BJJ/ MMA/ MT

    7
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    You're throwing so many strawman and red herring arguments I don't know if I'm in a cornfield or a fishery. There is a simple question that requires a simple answer and yet you hit us with a wall of text trying to convince, unsuccessfully, that the answer to the question is immaterial. It is material and your vehement denial of this fact is now casting shadows further afield than the original subject of this thread to your own school.

    I am no "competitor" for business, you can consider me a consumer and as a consumer I would like to know that if I were to invest my time and money in a martial art, that it is done wisely. Furthermore, if, as has happened on many occasions, I am asked if there is a decent martial arts school in the areas discussed I would like to say, "yes, there is a legitimate school called (either yours or Kerim's)", however, at present I would be forced, if I were asked, to advise against training at either schools due to the instructors not being forthcoming about their own training.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Machette View Post
    Ups to Battlefields for dropping the sage wisdom.

    You are like a Pimp Yoda.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tranquil Suit View Post
    Battlefields... You're more of a man than I am.
    GET A RED BELT OR DIE TRYIN'.
  8. Permalost is online now
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    Posted On:
    12/13/2012 12:09pm

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     Style: FMA, dumbek, Indian clubs

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by shifu View Post
    if money is all that matters in the martial arts then for fucks sake man, let me off the planet as I care deeply, passionately about the heart, essence and spirit of the arts not how much "money" I can make of "customers"
    Plenty of people will agree with you on this point and still insist that they train with a well-taught teacher. The lineage issue is not really about money, its about the things you just mentioned.
  9. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/13/2012 12:32pm

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     Style: xingyi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Do you have anything to add Ron? If not, do not post in this area. We do not need a derail of "I was attacked, now I will defend every one."

    You know what?

    You will be the leader of the new YMAS thread.


    Culled:
    http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=119007
    Last edited by It is Fake; 12/13/2012 12:54pm at .
  10. Rivington is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/13/2012 3:07pm

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    6
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Lineage is important in CMA for practical reasons, not just as a matter of getting the rub from a famous teacher.

    Look at two versions of a posture in most Chen taiji forms: Buddha's Attendant Pounds Mortar. (Basically, right leg and right hand move forward, rise, out, then land, with right fist landing on left palm.)


    Chen Xaiowang, a big ol' deal in Chen circles, does it as a stomp.



    Feng Zhiqiang, an equally big deal, does it as a knee-lift and also lands in a larger stance. Basically, he taught it as a way to push into an opponent's territory at close range.

    The fight strategies and applications and drills that inform the differences in how the forms are demonstrated are significant. Are we striking to grapple, or grappling in order to strike? Are we looking to build strength or subtlety? Those are lineage questions, ultimately, and what is why CMA teachers are generally happy to recite their lineages and explain why they do X in Y way as opposed to those lunatics at the other end of the park who do X in Z way.

    And lineage is also useful for knowledgeable CMA students; talking about lineage is a teachable moment.

    That's why CMA teachers who are cagey about their lineages are often suspect. Even if they can fight—so what? It's easy enough to learn boxing and wrestling, then claim you learned Earth Snake Fist from some old guy with a wispy beard who lived in a cave somewhere. Just call the jab Snake Flicks His Tongue and the pummeling drill to overhooks Twin Snakes Coil Around White Ape and BAM! instant grandmaster!
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