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  1. blackmonk is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/28/2012 12:34pm

    supporting member
     Style: belt and jacket wrestling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    the "guard pull" of judo

    A friend of mine recently advised me to work on my dropping arm throws, the most notorious of which is the drop seoi. He's a rather advanced judoka and sambist, and thought that the combination of my fast-twitch musculature, strength, and limb proportions would make them a high-percentage technique.

    My question isn't about the technique, but more about why it is considered the equivalent of "guard pulling"in BJJ. Why the hate?

    Is it considered passive? Too safe?

    I've seen it work at high, high levels of competition, in person... It was the number one throw that I saw at the sambo championships in Moscow.
  2. judojeff is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/28/2012 1:08pm


     Style: Judo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    For me the hate is not about the technique but more about how its scored in judo. Every time I see someone take a light roll over his opponent and lose my soul dies a little. Frankly it has more to do with how the refs award ippon then the move itself.

    Also if the person trying to do it has poor technique and is just huggin the arm and dropping it can make for a slow match, unless he has poor choke defense from turtle in which case it makes for a very quick match lol.
  3. CrackFox is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/28/2012 1:09pm

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     Style: Judo, BJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I think part of the problem is that beginners who can't do throws properly hit these occasionally - dropping down and awkwardly dragging their opponent with them - and then they keep trying to do it again and again at completely inappropriate times and it messes up their progress due to the way it causes everything to stop every time the try it.

    Now, if you allready know how to throw without dropping it's a very different story. One of the best players I know uses drop seoi-nage and it is absolutely fearsome. He knows how to set it up, and he could probably throw you without that drop, but it makes the technique so much better for him.
  4. bigato is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/28/2012 1:32pm

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     Style: bjj

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    We have a similar situation in bjj where foot locks are seem by some as 'ugly' game. In the case of bjj I say it's pure bullshit.
  5. BKR is offline
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    My dog is cuter and smarter than yours.

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    Posted On:
    10/28/2012 2:02pm

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     Style: Kodokan Judo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by blackmonk View Post
    A friend of mine recently advised me to work on my dropping arm throws, the most notorious of which is the drop seoi. He's a rather advanced judoka and sambist, and thought that the combination of my fast-twitch musculature, strength, and limb proportions would make them a high-percentage technique.

    My question isn't about the technique, but more about why it is considered the equivalent of "guard pulling"in BJJ. Why the hate?

    Is it considered passive? Too safe?

    I've seen it work at high, high levels of competition, in person... It was the number one throw that I saw at the sambo championships in Moscow.
    I'll start of with being didactic. "Drop" Seoi Nage is most often really a throw known as Seoi Otoshi. Not that it really matters in practical use so much, just so you know.

    In Seoi Otoshi, tori drops down to one or both knees and pulls uke down without rising back up. The similar version of Seoi Nage involves tori rising back up off of his or her knees, lifting uke up a little to a lot. Two different throwing principles involved.

    As far as the hate goes, I find it reserved mostly for what is known in the judo world as "flop and drop" tactice in shiai whereas the Seoi Otoshi is used to launch an attack that is not really expected to succeed but to reset the non-combativity clock. Before the new boundary rules came into effect, the "flop" was usually launched right at the edge of in-bounds, and the flopper would then basically be out of bounds and unavailable to be strangled or armbarred.

    So it's more the tactic than the technique that is not appreciated. The throw(s) themselves (as you note) are very strong competition techniques at higher levels of Judo, combining the force of a sutemi waza (sacrifice technique like Tomoe Nage) with a forward/back turning throw. To do well they require good timing and postitioning by the thrower.

    Also, in the US at least, Seoi Otoshi is allowed (in many places) in kids' divisions. It's dangerous for little kids, because of the control needed to not slam uke head into the mat and the difficulty of taking a fall at such a low altitude/angle. It also kind of short circuits learning the other standing forward throws. Some competition mad coaches specifically teach basically only this technique to kids in order to bring on early success in shiai.

    That sort of practice is not appreciated very much. In Canada, for example, any knee drop technique (and sutemi waza) isn't allowed in shiai for kids under 11, if I recall correctly...may be under age of 13.

    After my ACL got ripped in randori with an instructor, I had to start doing Seo Otoshi. I had a lot of success with it, and I'm not nor ever was an elite athlete. I started out with low standing Seoi Nage, but those are hard to do when you knee disclocates upon squatting, LOL !



    Ben
    Last edited by BKR; 10/28/2012 2:35pm at . Reason: OT BJJ stuff omitted to please JNP
    Falling for Judo since 1980
  6. jnp is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/28/2012 2:04pm

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     Style: BJJ, wrestling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by bigato View Post
    We have a similar situation in bjj where foot locks are seem by some as 'ugly' game. In the case of bjj I say it's pure bullshit.
    Thread drift or off topic posts are not allowed in the technique forums. Please stick to the original subject when posting in a technique thread.
    Shut the hell up and train.
  7. blackmonk is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/28/2012 2:44pm

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     Style: belt and jacket wrestling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by BKR View Post
    I'll start of with being didactic. "Drop" Seoi Nage is most often really a throw known as Seoi Otoshi. Not that it really matters in practical use so much, just so you know.
    I actually call it seoi otoshi 95% of the time. I have an English degree and a ton of post-graduate work in language, so a small part of me dies when people unnecessarily abbreviate things or use silly nicknames. Etymology iz kewl.

    I used "drop seoi" here because some people look at me blankly when I say seoi otoshi, even people who are excellent sambists or judokas.

    I think your explanation is pretty thorough. At a tournament the other weekend, I saw 1001 crappy seoi otoshi attempts, and they had to have known they weren't anywhere close to completing that throw. It looked like an easy way to get a reset. Honestly, I can't say that I don't do the same thing sometimes, though, or try to bait my opponent into groundwork with similar tactics.

    My "flop" throw is usually tomoenage, tani otoshi, or kosoto gake.
  8. bigato is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/28/2012 8:21pm

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     Style: bjj

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by jnp View Post
    Thread drift or off topic posts are not allowed in the technique forums. Please stick to the original subject when posting in a technique thread.
    Sorry. I thought it wasn't off topic, but I see your standard and will stick to it from now on.
  9. Naszir is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/29/2012 4:52pm


     Style: BJJ, Judo, SAMBO

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I think it also might get a lot of hate because in a tournament, you not only can get a reset but you appear to be busy in case of the match going to decision. At a recent rapid fire tournament we saw a lot of decisions, more than in any other the hosting club had seen. The seoi otoshi seemed to be a hail Mary kind of throw. All that said, a really good seoi otoshi or seoi nage is a thing of beauty and devastating. It just stinks that half-hearted, crappy techniques poisoned the well for these techniques in a lot of people's eyes.
  10. blackmonk is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/29/2012 5:11pm

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     Style: belt and jacket wrestling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Re: the "guard pull" of judo

    well, after I'm done with my Soviet-style case study of arm throws, no one in our club will throw a shitty seoi again!

    Sent from my SPH-D700 using Tapatalk 2
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